overkill

[perrymason]

Michael writes:

"Id be inclined to say that curiosity is one of the predominant features of the Kelly murder"

I wouldn´t know about that, Michael. But if you are correct, then an interesting parallel is that of Robert Ackerman, who would also fit in quite well with some of the thinking offered by our own Cap´n Jack.
Ackermans exploits can be traced via:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/weird/robert_ackermann/1.html

The best, Michael!
Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,

Nice to see you mate. Thats a really interesting case there, and for me personally it struck on a few chords I feel are related to actual "Jack" crimes.

I think one thing is his ability to charm. Like Bundy. Disarming them enough to ge a hold of them for just a moment, thats all he needed.

There is no finesse at all in Martha Tabrams murder. If Jack was in a military analogy a "sharpshooter", then the man that made 99.9 % of the stabs into Martha was a front line "infantryman".

All the best Fish.

[perrymason]

Hi Mike (hope you don't mind me calling you Mike?),....

Not at all Lauren, although the Good Michael uses Mike and myself Michael usually when we are on the same threads.

Is there any evidence to suggest it was in fact the same weapon jabbed in to Martha Tabram with not so much force as what that deep stab?

On that second point, if youre asking whether the pen knife... described as being the instrument for every stab except one.....would or could have made the larger wound, my guess would be no.

It was distinctive enough to warrant the exception, and Im inclined to extend Killeen the benefit on that point.

All the best

[Fisherman]

Michael writes:

"Im inclined to extend Killeen the benefit on that point."

Good on you, Michael - and as you know, I agree fully. As for Lozles question whether there was any evidence to suggest it was in fact the same weapon jabbed in to Martha Tabram with not so much force as what that deep stab, I think that we may need to realize that we have no evidence telling us that the smaller blade was used with less force; instead we do know that it was sunk deeply into Tabram´s body, piercing the internal organs time and time again.
Of course, coupled with extreme stabbing violence we often have bruising on the areas that are hit by hilt and hand, and no such report is at hand. That, though, does not necessarily mean that there was no such bruising to the body, only that Killeen did not mention it at the inquest.

The best,
Fisherman

[Lozle]

Hello again,
I agree the most logical explanation for the wounds inflicted would have been made with 2different weapons, and perhaps 2different people.

Though why would someone carry 2different types of blade on them? Unless the murderer was carrying one blade and found another weapon Martha Tabram was carrying? And it doesn't make sense that someone would stab a woman numerous times driven by strong emotional arousal -my personal view-, pause, rumage for something, find another weapon and give her a few more stabs. Whether that single deep wound was the first or whether it was the numerous shallower stabs that came first, it's still ambiguous.

Unless there was more than one individual. If there was more than one individual you could interpret the stabbings as...
1) the shallow, numerous stabs made by someone with an intense emotional connection to Martha Tabram
2) the single deep wound made by someone more controlled then the individuals who inflicted shallow frenzied stabbings.

Though, the matter of one individual or more than one possessing more than one weapon does tend to suggest a premedated act... Perhaps?

Many thanks.

[perrymason]

Hello again,
I agree the most logical explanation for the wounds inflicted would have been made with 2different weapons, and perhaps 2different people.

Though why would someone carry 2different types of blade on them? Unless the murderer was carrying one blade and found another weapon Martha Tabram was carrying? And it doesn't make sense that someone would stab a woman numerous times driven by strong emotional arousal -my personal view-, pause, rumage for something, find another weapon and give her a few more stabs. Whether that single deep wound was the first or whether it was the numerous shallower stabs that came first, it's still ambiguous.

Unless there was more than one individual. If there was more than one individual you could interpret the stabbings as...
1) the shallow, numerous stabs made by someone with an intense emotional connection to Martha Tabram
2) the single deep wound made by someone more controlled then the individuals who inflicted shallow frenzied stabbings.

Though, the matter of one individual or more than one possessing more than one weapon does tend to suggest a premedated act... Perhaps?

Many thanks.

Ill let Fisherman tell you why two men is plausible but that they may not have been working together Lauren...but on the issue of the weapons themselves, it is said of the times that on Public or Bank Holidays, current or ex-military men were permitted to wear their dress uniforms complete with short sword or bayonets.

A pen knife is by definition a "pocket knife", in that it folds and can be carried around daily....so yes.....men coulod have worn 2 or more weapons and had yet another in their pocket.

Interesting when we note who was last seen in her company and who is seen near her murder site.....1 of 2 soldiers went with her after she left Pearly Poll, and 1 of 2 soldiers was seen by a PC waiting for another in George Yard.

2 soldiers could easily equal 4 bladed weapons on a Bank Holiday.

All the best L.

[Lozle]

Hello again,
Hi Michael, you're going to have enough of me soon .
Interesting point, and yes I noticed she was in the company of soldiers and soldiers were sighted around George Yard which initially got me thinking it could quite easily have been them. Furthermore, the fact they would have weapons on them and known how to use them more than skillfully persuaded that line of thinking for me.

Though the attack on Martha Tabram with - in my opinion - personal/emotional, frenzied numerous stabbings is where I wavered on the soldiers a little.

Though I still feel the strongest arguement for who the killers were would be the soldiers. But the emotional attachment which appears quite blatantly present - to me - confuses me a little, unless something happened at the time which Martha Tabram could have been responsible for, such as; ridiculing, being aggressive or threatening etc. Unfortunately, we'll never know what happened there and then.
Many thanks.

[halomanuk]

If a soldier is already highly-strung due to duty or whatever reason or just a feeling of guilt or lack of self-respect because he has gone with an 'unfortunate' then all it may take is a comment from Tabram about the size of his manhood or something and that would push him over the edge and all that frustration and pent up anger would be vented on her.

Could be something as simple as that maybe...

[Lozle]

Hi,

Well thats certainly a reasonable idea and something which I have also pondered over. Especially as the attack seems to suggest someone in a rage or in an emotional state. I doubt it would take much for a soldier to flip at something like that. I don't think men who are not soldiers and are quite fixed in themselves would take ridicule too well by an "unfortunate" or by someone they believe to be in the trade.

Many thanks

[halomanuk]

Welcome to the forum by the way,there is a thread that you can introduce yourself if you want :

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=2755

[Lozle]

Hi Barry,
Cheers =oD. Take care.

[perrymason]

Hi again Folks,

This is an interesting murder contextually Fisherman, I agree,...it would be hard to suggest that this murder didnt signal some new killer styles in that area, at that time.

My belief is that if killers evolve, and there were attackers/killers other than Jack killing women that Spring and Fall, whose to say which evolving killer is present at the individual murders?

I think "opening" the deceased is the key. He didnt want all of them, just parts of them.

I could see any myriad of explanations working for how this may have occurred....she taunts client, he flips out....second man comes by and makes sure shes dead when they leave immediately after.....or....one soldier comes by and catches his mate with Martha, respectfully not a Monroe type, taunts him for having to pay her, and he demands his money back embarrassed and she demurs......or, he is rough with her, she gets nervous and tries to push him away, he pounces towards her, one hand over her mouth the other stabbing away...

I think all one man would have had to do to is to keep her pinned against the wall and to use his forearm and hand to pin her and cover her mouth, the free hand to stab her.....its not said how long it took from stab 1 to stab 39, but it may have been what, 20-30 seconds? She wouldnt be able to call out.

I think she was pinned against a wall, not lying down, and maybe one man held her and her mouth from behind, when he drops her, the stabber pockets his pen-knife, and borrows his mates bayonet to finish her. It may have been robbery.

Cheers all.

[Lozle]

Hey,

Very interesting points which are similar to what me and Halomanuk were discussing earlier. I have been going over similar scenarios in my head. Though I've never been overly successful in writing it out coherently, just resort to giving the brie idea, so again, thank you. Glad i'm not the only one thinking that way.

Though, unfortunately what went on at that specific time and what ever triggered the act, will never be sure.

Many thanks.

[Fisherman]

Lozle writes about:

"...the shallow, numerous stabs ..."

But these were not shallow stabs, Lozle; keep in mind that Tabrams lungs, spleen, liver, stomach etc were pierced by them! That of course tells us that the blade that Killeen described as being of a pen-knife resemblance, would not have been shortish. Tabram was a voluminious woman, and the blade must have travelled trough many inches of flesh to produce the type of damage Killeen reports on.

On Michaels suggestion that Tabram may have been stabbed standing up, I cannot exclude the possibility, but I am of another mind myself. People who are subjected to stabbings towards the chest and stomach area in the kind of position she would have been in, with the perpetrator nailing the victim against a wall, typically receive stabbings that travel into the body at an upward angle that gives away how they have been standing. No such angling of the knife is mentioned by Killeen. Moreover, supporting Tabrams full weight throughout a 39-stab onslaught would have taken an immensely strong arm. We must also keep in mind that the arm supporting her was preoccupied covering her mouth to keep her from screaming - it was a silent deed. And how do you support the weight of a heavy woman like Tabram by covering her mouth?
Tabram would have slumped towards the ground pretty soon, considering the damage dealt to her - that, at least, is how I see it. I find it more credible that Tabrams silence was led on by the effusion of blood on her head, and that the same blow had rendered her both silent and helpless - and on her back on that landing, before the knives were used.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Even an overweight person's skin consists of only an inch and a half or so of fatty tissue, Fish - and that at its thickest. Given that the majority of Tabram's wounds were inflicted on the chest and upper abdomen (where the fat isn't as thick), a blade of perhaps 4 inches in length may have been sufficient. It's not inconceivable that a penknife would have a blade that long.

Don't forget, also, that skin (and fat) is elastic, and that only a modest amount of force can compress and deform it. On that basis, a 4" blade could easily penetrate through to the underlying viscera, if propelled by a stabbing motion.

[perrymason]

I think one barrier to more forceful stabs Sam is that this was described as a pen knife, which by dictionary definition was a folding knife. One strike into bone might be enough to break or damage the weak locking systems that were on those knives of the period,... and then the blade closure, which would fold into or against the hilt, might seriously cut or slice off his own finger(s).

These are not instruments designed to stab with, they were for minor knife use like Richardson used the table knife for on the back steps at Hanbury. For carving, whittling anything that places the force being exerted against the blade in its open position, and away from the hilt.

Best regards