Martha Tabram--First In The Series

[perrymason]

Right..

It occured to me the police also thought Martha was with a client on the landing. So.. If its JTR and he goes with Martha to the landing he ends up stabbing her multiple times. And it seems the stabs were directed at vital areas on the body.

1. Why would JTR do this and not attempt to remove organs? Maybe because it was a landing and JTR does like what he did with Eddowes. 2. He cuts(pun not intended)corners when he feels he doesnt have the time.

3. Maybe just stabbing the vital organs was enough mutilation to satisfy JTR for the conditions he thought he was in?

Hi Mitch,

As per my highlights above...

1. It would have been more difficult considering he is killing her while they are standing....but thats more a reason to not match the murders than it is to support his non mutilations as a "choice".

2. I would not ever suggest myself that what happened to Kate Eddowes was a result of "cutting corners"....all that he did in around 6 minutes excluding his egress? He went to town and accomplished much there...no corners seem cut at all....excluding from an apron section.

3. Stabbing is an external act, it is agressive. Holding warm wet organs taken from a murdered woman is internal in every sense, very subjective and personal. People get stabbed all the time, Ill bet its the most widely carried weapon in the world...few have their bellies cut open and guts taken from them...in the dark.

Cheers Mitch.

[Jez]

Another possibility is that Jack was still an apprentice, learning his "trade".
We shouldn't expect his first killing to be similar to his last.

[Ben]

Absolutely right, Jez.

1. It would have been more difficult considering he is killing her while they are standing

Still not too sure where you're getting that one from, Mike. The chances of Tabram remaining upright after 39 stab wounds were almost certainly zero.

People get stabbed all the time, Ill bet its the most widely carried weapon in the world...few have their bellies cut open and guts taken from them...in the dark.

But people didn't receive the injuries Tabram did "all the time", which is why the unusual ferocity of the attack was considered so rare even for that district, with the coroner not only observed that an attack on that scale had not occured for a great many years, but that the perpatrator must be a "lunatic".

Best regards,
Ben

[harry]

Yes the Killing at Gateshead was proved to have not been connected,although the general feeling at the beginning was of the same killer.Inspector Steer?(not sure if the name correct)stated in September 1888,that the killings had started two months earlier.That would be July.Inspector Murray,in the same month ,stated the killings had started 'months' earlier.

[perrymason]

Hi again,

Hi Ben, my point was that to stab someone repeatedly and often at 90 degree angles implies that likely for most of those stabs Martha was between him and a wall and she slumped gradually as he continued his pump action stabbing. My guess by the medical reports is that some wounds may have been downward stabs, like with a bent arm action.

I unhesitatingly agree with you that Martha's stabbing is far more severe than any run of the mill murder....in fact when reading the press reports as they came out and the murders were attributed to this elusive killer, Martha was thought to be one of the most savage murders in recent memory.

But as the victim list grows, her likely inclusion fades. Why is that? Because they were better able to see one mans work when they had a few repetitive, almost identical style murders. Im pretty sure that you would agree that one reason the Dear Boss letter chooses Jack the RIPper is because he had already "ripped" 2 women open at that point in time.

A new killer came out of the murders of Polly and Annie, not the same guy or gang who they thought was intimidating street prostitutes and using a knife or blunt object like in Emmas case. Those murders were very different from Marthas....and some future Canonicals.

Amongst the mayhem that is Ripperology are 3 women who may even have been killed consecutively...if Liz wasnt Jacks.... that share an eerie similarity in the method of their dispatch and resulting wounds to one another. There are also, other women who were murdered during that time that were unsolved crimes.

Cheers mate.

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

Hi Ben, my point was that to stab someone repeatedly and often at 90 degree angles implies that likely for most of those stabs Martha was between him and a wall and she slumped gradually as he continued his pump action stabbing.

I'm really not sure why this is any more probable than the far more trouble-free option of stabbing her as she was lying down?

But as the victim list grows, her likely inclusion fades. Why is that? Because they were better able to see one mans work when they had a few repetitive, almost identical style murders

None of that makes her inclusion any less "likely", though. History and experience has effectively nullified any justification for ruling out any victim that isn't as "identical" as two of three in the series. Where you have a few "identical" victims, the killer is practically guaranteed to have been responsible for some less identical ones, and you're most likely to find those at the beginning of the series, when the killer was embarking upon his voyage of heinous discovery.

A very small minority of killers have a robot-like consistency in their approach, and get it spot on with their first murder, and I see no reason to place Jack in the minority. More likely, in my view, he gained insights as he progressed and learned on the job like most of 'em.

Best regards,
Ben

[perrymason]

Hi Ben,

Ok, let me try this tact with you......would you agree that within the Canon there are victims that show evidence of their killers interest in postmortem mutilation?

Ok. Would you agree that to engage in such acts in public constitutes some drive or compulsion that forces him to risk being caught by staying after he has killed them to cut them open? In other words.....something he feels he must do?

Is it your contention that this need or compulsion was an evolved characteristic, or is it one inherent in the killers personna to begin with?

Personally, I believe the compulsion pre-dates the acts in this case. Which is why I feel when he gives in to the compulsions he will act out what he has supressed....why else would he act out unless to fulfill those dark thoughts...in this case, opening womens abdomens once they have been killed. Cutting and slicing human beings. It would explain why he can be so "productive" in such short periods of time...he was focussed.

I dont think in "Jacks" case, that need was merely killing.....as in the death of Martha Tabram and Elizabeth Strides for example.

Cheers Ben

[Ben]

Is it your contention that this need or compulsion was an evolved characteristic, or is it one inherent in the killers personna to begin with?

Almost certainly an evolved characteristic, Mike.

Like the MO-consistent Dennis Rader, he had a "general idea of what he wanted to do", but the actual specifics evolved with discovery and practice. I've no doubt whatsoever that he had complusions, i.e. to murder and mutilate women, but the acute particulars were susceptible to change as he gained new insights. Clearly there were many aspects that he stuck with once he'd discovered them, but that doesn't mean that he had a meticulously prepared mutilation criteria that he intended to carry out to the letter.

Best regards,
Ben

[Mitch Rowe]

Hi Mitch,

As per my highlights above...

1. It would have been more difficult considering he is killing her while they are standing....but thats more a reason to not match the murders than it is to support his non mutilations as a "choice".

2. I would not ever suggest myself that what happened to Kate Eddowes was a result of "cutting corners"....all that he did in around 6 minutes excluding his egress? He went to town and accomplished much there...no corners seem cut at all....excluding from an apron section.

3. Stabbing is an external act, it is agressive. Holding warm wet organs taken from a murdered woman is internal in every sense, very subjective and personal. People get stabbed all the time, Ill bet its the most widely carried weapon in the world...few have their bellies cut open and guts taken from them...in the dark.

Cheers Mitch.

Hi..

I dont anything about anyone standing while being attacked so I dont understand your first statement. Sorry.

From what I can see of the scant "evidence" left behind in these cases JTR didnt spend as much time as he did with AC or MJK. Both Philips and Bond describe the three flaps of skin removed in both these cases. I surmise that it takes more time to do that than what was done to Eddowes. I would suppose JTRs ultimate goal was what he did to MJK and that included mutitudes of skin cutting.

I dont know if JTR knew that much about stabbing to be able to tell what kind of an act it was beyond unlawful.

Cheers

[Chava]

(plaintive little voice)

The thing is, I started this thread more as a place where people who do think she may have been the start of the series could talk about what could be learned from her. The other thread could be used to discuss whether he is a victim at all.

Having looked at the descriptions of men seen with victims before their deaths, it seems to me that Ada Wilson's guy could well be the Ripper on an early and unfocussed foray. Because her description of her attacker matches horribly well with descriptions of a man seen with Stride, Eddowes and Kelly. If the Wilson case is a possible Ripper attack, then he was out and about previous to the Nicholls killing. And also he was stabbing rather than cutting. Wilson shows up with stab wounds to her torso and legs.

[perrymason]

Almost certainly an evolved characteristic, Mike.

Like the MO-consistent Dennis Rader, he had a "general idea of what he wanted to do", but the actual specifics evolved with discovery and practice. I've no doubt whatsoever that he had complusions, i.e. to murder and mutilate women, but the acute particulars were susceptible to change as he gained new insights. Clearly there were many aspects that he stuck with once he'd discovered them, but that doesn't mean that he had a meticulously prepared mutilation criteria that he intended to carry out to the letter.

Best regards,
Ben

If its just an evolved desire or need Ben, then how does he evolve to the point where we have him committing 2 very similar, ...strikingly similar murders with consecutive victims within a months time?

He begins, or is early stages with frenzied, barely controlled stabs, showing little or no knife prowess...and in a month he can excise a uterus complete?

I believe this guy entered the stage with desires and objectives he could no longer suppress, or satisfy in other forms.

Cheers Ben

[perrymason]

Hi..

I dont anything about anyone standing while being attacked so I dont understand your first statement. Sorry.

From what I can see of the scant "evidence" left behind in these cases JTR didnt spend as much time as he did with AC or MJK. Both Philips and Bond describe the three flaps of skin removed in both these cases. I surmise that it takes more time to do that than what was done to Eddowes. I would suppose JTRs ultimate goal was what he did to MJK and that included mutitudes of skin cutting.

I dont know if JTR knew that much about stabbing to be able to tell what kind of an act it was beyond unlawful.

Cheers

Hi Mitch,

There is no evidence uncovered in the investigation of Martha Tabrams death that led the police or medical authorities to conclude she was stabbed while on the ground. There is no mention of lividity revealing that fact.

There is cause for that assumption in other alledged Ripper murders. It quite conceivable she stood as long as he could.

Supposing Mary Kelly was the fruition of all his efforts is palatable for many students based on that assumption about his ultimate objectives, but not for myself.

Cheers Mitch.

[Ben]

If its just an evolved desire or need Ben, then how does he evolve in a month to the point where we have him committing 2 very similar, ...strikingly similar murders with consecutive victims within a months time?

Pretty easily to be honest, Mike. He simply contemplates how he might improve on his latest murder, and how he might take his highly morbid curiosity even further. Opening up an abdomen is an eminently plausible step-upwards in that regard, just as organ-extractions are a steb up from abdominal ripping. He didn't need a month to consider such an escalation. He didn't even need five minutes.

There is no evidence uncovered in the investigation of Martha Tabrams death that led the police or medical authorities to conclude she was stabbed while on the ground.

I must admit you still have me very confused on this point, Mike. There's no proof that she was stabbed on the ground, but there's certainly no evidence to the contrary, and it must be considered the more logical explanation. Even if the first stab took place in an upright position, she wouldn't have remained there for very long at all - two stabs, tops.

Best regards,
Ben

[perrymason]

(plaintive little voice)

The thing is, I started this thread more as a place where people who do think she may have been the start of the series could talk about what could be learned from her. The other thread could be used to discuss whether he is a victim at all.

Having looked at the descriptions of men seen with victims before their deaths, it seems to me that Ada Wilson's guy could well be the Ripper on an early and unfocussed foray. Because her description of her attacker matches horribly well with descriptions of a man seen with Stride, Eddowes and Kelly. If the Wilson case is a possible Ripper attack, then he was out and about previous to the Nicholls killing. And also he was stabbing rather than cutting. Wilson shows up with stab wounds to her torso and legs.

Hi Chava,

Sorry if we went astray from your intended route... but Im sure you can understand people questioning why we would be entertaining such a scenario as even plausible as well.

Its akin to opening a thread called..."Assume Lewis Carroll was the Ripper".....everyone first needs a soapbox of facts and foundation to be heard above all others.

All the best

[perrymason]

I must admit you still have me very confused on this point, Mike. There's no proof that she was stabbed on the ground, but there's certainly no evidence to the contrary, and it must be considered the more logical explanation. Even if the first stab took place in an upright position, she wouldn't have remained there for very long at all - two stabs, tops.

Best regards,
Ben

There is proof that suggests the next two women killed were in that position Ben, and frantically stabbing a woman who is between the killer and a wall and slumping from blood loss isnt by necessity stabbing a dead woman. She didnt die when he stabbed her....she died as a result of dozens of stabs to muscle, tissue and vital organs, and a single death inducing larger bladed stab.

Cheers mate