Yet another explanation of the wounds

[protohistorian]

Two weapons could be the function of a singular person who launched the attack with the clasp knife, and after much effort and little success used the second weapon in an attempt to quelch the resulting noise from the victim. The order of use being a function of a combination of weapon access speed and the positioning and movement of both the killer and victim. Once the attack was well and truly underway, the noise generated by the victim, in concert with a hightened sense of urgency in the attacker would result in the deployment of the second weapon even though by virtue of it's size, and therefore it's location of storage it would be harder to place into service. Under the following scenario the intent to kill is not a forgone conclusion. The attack can thusly be interpreted in an opportunistic manner. It brings the possibility of the Tabram attack as unrelated to other attacks to the for.
It is a thought anyhow, and I have the reciept to prove it. Respectfully Dave

[protohistorian]

Two weapons could be the function of a singular person who launched the attack with the clasp knife, and after much effort and little success used the second weapon in an attempt to quelch the resulting noise from the victim. The order of use being a function of a combination of weapon access speed and the positioning and movement of both the killer and victim. Once the attack was well and truly underway, the noise generated by the victim, in concert with a hightened sense of urgency in the attacker would result in the deployment of the second weapon even though by virtue of it's size, and therefore it's location of storage it would be harder to place into service. Under the following scenario the intent to kill is not a forgone conclusion. The attack can thusly be interpreted in an opportunistic manner. It brings the possibility of the Tabram attack as unrelated to other attacks to the for.
It is a thought anyhow, and I have the reciept to prove it. Respectfully Dave

It cannot be a good sign when I start replying to myself. The matter of the second weapons late deployment in the crime could be an indicator that it was an object carried by the killer with some degree regularity, and in his mind another purpose (such a tool), only in a hieghtened sense of urgency did it occur to the killer that it could be multitasked as a weapon.

[perrymason]

It cannot be a good sign when I start replying to myself. The matter of the second weapons late deployment in the crime could be an indicator that it was an object carried by the killer with some degree regularity, and in his mind another purpose (such a tool), only in a hieghtened sense of urgency did it occur to the killer that it could be multitasked as a weapon.

Hi Dave,

On Holidays Military men were allowed to wear bayonets or daggers, or both, on their person. Military weaponry was also available for purchase in some shops that catered to that kind of merchandise, and uniforms were as well. Which would make it possible for anyone to represent themself as a Military man during those times. Its not like Police checked for their details everytime they spotted those kinds of weapons on people in crowded holiday streets.

A person like that could easily realize late that he was wearing a larger more lethal weapon he could be using...because he rarely if ever had worn one before.

Remember the story of the St Valentines Day Massacre in gang era Chicago? The killers dressed as cops.

Cheers Dave.

[protohistorian]

Hi Dave,

On Holidays Military men were allowed to wear bayonets or daggers, or both, on their person. Military weaponry was also available for purchase in some shops that catered to that kind of merchandise, and uniforms were as well. Which would make it possible for anyone to represent themself as a Military man during those times. Its not like Police checked for their details everytime they spotted those kinds of weapons on people in crowded holiday streets.

A person like that could easily realize late that he was wearing a larger more lethal weapon he could be using...because he rarely if ever had worn one before.

Remember the story of the St Valentines Day Massacre in gang era Chicago? The killers dressed as cops.

Excellent point, both newness of weapon and carrying as second nature fit.

[perrymason]

I thought that if you werent aware of those details before that you might see some potential corroboration of your idea there.

If the coroner was correct in that only one stab was the result of a larger, longer, wider blade...it may well be that wound was intended to end the murder dance between predator and prey. And ending a murder with a stab and not slitting a throat seems to me... very un-Ripperlike.

All the best Dave.

[protohistorian]

I thought that if you werent aware of those details before that you might see some potential corroboration of your idea there.

If the coroner was correct in that only one stab was the result of a larger, longer, wider blade...it may well be that wound was intended to end the murder dance between predator and prey. And ending a murder with a stab and not slitting a throat seems to me... very un-Ripperlike.

All the best Dave.

Agreed. One of the problems I have been having in my considerations is seperating the mythos of JtR form the reality of one and quite possibly more than one killers. Have not had time to review press coverage of the events, but it seems likely that enough detail was given to allow for multiple, independently operating killers, and also to allow for opportunistic killings in the mode of JtR. This complicates the examination of wound morphology, m.o. evolution, signature features, and potential serial motives. The Myth is a singular hunter of prostutes. It should be a patterning of wounds types. The data was recorded and comes to the modern understanding in a somewhat garbled fashion both through cultural disparity and the shifts in word meanings . I have been looking at the crimes as singularities for the purpose of crime feature identification and am now dredding the slog back through the data to establish recurrent themes. Alas, only so many hours in the day, looking into chapman and carrying a full course load. I knoe my steps are clumsy and awkward, bear with me. Thank you for the help. Respectfully Dave

[perrymason]

Agreed. One of the problems I have been having in my considerations is seperating the mythos of JtR form the reality of one and quite possibly more than one killers. Have not had time to review press coverage of the events, but it seems likely that enough detail was given to allow for multiple, independently operating killers, and also to allow for opportunistic killings in the mode of JtR. This complicates the examination of wound morphology, m.o. evolution, signature features, and potential serial motives. The Myth is a singular hunter of prostutes. It should be a patterning of wounds types. The data was recorded and comes to the modern understanding in a somewhat garbled fashion both through cultural disparity and the shifts in word meanings . I have been looking at the crimes as singularities for the purpose of crime feature identification and am now dredding the slog back through the data to establish recurrent themes. Alas, only so many hours in the day, looking into chapman and carrying a full course load. I knoe my steps are clumsy and awkward, bear with me. Thank you for the help. Respectfully Dave

I agree with all I emboldened excluding the last section...not clumsy at all chum.

Off for bit bit....cheers Dave.

[Shelley]

It cannot be a good sign when I start replying to myself. The matter of the second weapons late deployment in the crime could be an indicator that it was an object carried by the killer with some degree regularity, and in his mind another purpose (such a tool), only in a hieghtened sense of urgency did it occur to the killer that it could be multitasked as a weapon.

Protohistorian,
Ok, i'll reply to you.............'If she's made of wood ' Build a bridge out of 'er!'

Tabram could have been attacked by 2 men and 2 weapons, maybe members of one of the many gangs in the area. She could also have been attacked with 2 weapons and one man. The only thing is Dr Killeen pointed out the differences in the wounding, also given Tabram's age her sternum would have not been as soft as a younger woman, plus it shows the more likely that she was attacked with 2 weapons. It can get a bit fuzzy with all the arguments and posts on that Martha Tabram a ripper victim? thread. I believe i once actually made a slip and thought it to be 1 weapon at one point, tiredness and keyboard buttons, plus some blur from eyes can be a real pain when making posts. Which then i understand......Get some sleep & who really cares about all theories anyway!

[smezenen]

[QUOTE=perrymason;68174]
On Holidays Military men were allowed to wear bayonets or daggers, or both, on their person. Military weaponry was also available for purchase in some shops that catered to that kind of merchandise, and uniforms were as well. Which would make it possible for anyone to represent themself as a Military man during those times. Its not like Police checked for their details everytime they spotted those kinds of weapons on people in crowded holiday streets.

QUOTE]

Regular leave from their post was an idividual thing but when on holiday pass enlisted American soldiers of the period where required to travel in groups of 2 or more. Being American military myself I'm not sure if the policies were the same for British soldiers as they where for American soldiers of the period. If they where the same. then JTR would surely have observed soldiers traveling in groups, so he would need a partner in order to pull off the impersonation or be impersonating an officer as they where not required to travel in groups, but why would a british officer be mucking about in the slums. they where almost always from uper class families. Most officers (with a few exceptions)in every nations army bought their commisons in those days. So logicaly if Jack killed Martha while in a military uniform then he would have had a partner. That leaves us with at least 2 men impersonating military, or at least 2 actuall soldiers. I know that kind of rambled around a bit but do you have any thoughts here?