39 stabs - a frenzy?

[harry]

Now I did say only some of the wounds may have been mere punctures,that is because Kileen alluded to them as punctures,and my understanding of a puncture wound is something akin to a snake bite,not much more than the breaking of the skin,and of course I,and Kileen,could be right,some of them may have been.I also am aware of the deepness of some of the wounds,so Sam it might have been a case of skewing a steak instead of pricking a sausage.It still doesn't denote frenzy.That there appears to be three distinct areas of attact might also point to a controlled individual,and the lack of more extensive slashing a realisation that the weapon to hand was not suitable for such.
I am posting early and without much thinking because today is my eighty first(81) birthday,and later on the screen may become a little blurry.
Regards all.

[Stewart P Evans]

Happy Birthday

Now I did say only some of the wounds may have been mere punctures,that is because Kileen alluded to them as punctures,and my understanding of a puncture wound is something akin to a snake bite,not much more than the breaking of the skin,and of course I,and Kileen,could be right,some of them may have been.I also am aware of the deepness of some of the wounds,so Sam it might have been a case of skewing a steak instead of pricking a sausage.It still doesn't denote frenzy.That there appears to be three distinct areas of attact might also point to a controlled individual,and the lack of more extensive slashing a realisation that the weapon to hand was not suitable for such.
I am posting early and without much thinking because today is my eighty first(81) birthday,and later on the screen may become a little blurry.
Regards all.

Harry, my hat is off to you. Happy birthday.

[DVV]

I wholeheartedly wish you a happy birthday too Harry,
and add that your post is excellent.
Well spotted and worth discussing!
As Stewart said, hat off.

[Sam Flynn]

Harry - I'm half your age and the screen is blurry, so I'll pitch my hat in the ring as well. Congratulations

[DVV]

Sam, I think Harry's screen will be blurry because of champagne.
Of course, you are allowed to drink even if it's not your birthday!
I'll immediatly open a red Cahors and drink it à la santé de Harry.

Amitiés,
David

[Fisherman]

Harry!

I would also like to join the well-wishers, just as I would like to join those who recognize the merit of your latest post. Just like you say, there are a number of things that may lead the thoughts to somebody who was not totally out of control.
Now see to it that such a thing does not apply to your own good self on this day - go blur that screen!

The best of wishes!
Fisherman

[DVV]

I just realized it should be a wideawake hat off for Harry.
And that Sam is 40,5 years old.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Now I did say only some of the wounds may have been mere punctures,that is because Kileen alluded to them as punctures,and my understanding of a puncture wound is something akin to a snake bite,not much more than the breaking of the skin,and of course I,and Kileen,could be right,some of them may have been.I also am aware of the deepness of some of the wounds,so Sam it might have been a case of skewing a steak instead of pricking a sausage.It still doesn't denote frenzy.That there appears to be three distinct areas of attact might also point to a controlled individual,and the lack of more extensive slashing a realisation that the weapon to hand was not suitable for such.
I am posting early and without much thinking because today is my eighty first(81) birthday,and later on the screen may become a little blurry.
Regards all.

There is, in my opinion, nothing 'controlled' about a victim being stabbed 39 times. I honestly can't see how anyone can interpret any controlled elements in the Tabram murder. of course a multible stabbing of 39 wounds is a result of frenzy - to state anything else is ridiculous.

Likewise, I am att odds at how anyone can distinguish 'three different areas' when in fact Tabram appears to have been stabbed all over most parts of her torso neck and breast area, areas that are attached to one another natrually and pretty much becomes one area as a whole. Torsos are the most common parts to be subjected to random stabbing in any such attack, so i honestly don't see any signs at all of any particular 'design'.

That said, I want to join in the choir and wish our distinguished member Harry a really happy birthday and a great day!

[DVV]

2 weapons ?

If we have to accept all the conclusions of Dr Killeen, who can have 2 murderers.
One, right handed, who would have stabbed Martha 38 times.
Another one, left-handed, who would have pierced Martha's chestbone with a dagger or a bayonet...
I wonder what other kind of weapon he would have proposed, had he seen Mary Kelly's thigh.

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

There is, in my opinion, nothing 'controlled' about a victim being stabbed 39 times. I honestly can't see how anyone can interpret any controlled elements in the Tabram murder. of course a multible stabbing of 39 wounds is a result of frenzy - to state anything else is ridiculous.

Hi Glenn,
...and no, discussing this topic isn't ridiculous, and it will be certainly more interesting even after we would have read Fish's article in Ripperologist.
Nobody here denies "frenzy", Glenn, but Fisherman points out that there is more than frenzy (true, 39 stabs is nothing ordinary, while violence between prostitutes and their customers must have been common) and Harry points out some evidences that can hardly be neglected.

Amitiés,
David

[Canucco dei Mergi]

There is, in my opinion, nothing 'controlled' about a victim being stabbed 39 times. I honestly can't see how anyone can interpret any controlled elements in the Tabram murder. of course a multible stabbing of 39 wounds is a result of frenzy - to state anything else is ridiculous.

You know why 'Ripperologues' and Ripperology do not make any progress ?
And they do not make any progress.

Because they call 'ridiculous' what they don't understand.

It was, I think the former US president Lyndon Johnson who said about the other former US President Gerald Ford that he was only half a man because he could not chew a gum while farting.

In Ripperology sure 'Ripperologues' brains can't think while laughing.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

If we have to accept all the conclusions of Dr Killeen, who can have 2 murderers.
One, right handed, who would have stabbed Martha 38 times.
Another one, left-handed, who would have pierced Martha's chestbone with a dagger or a bayonet...
I wonder what other kind of weapon he would have proposed, had he seen Mary Kelly's thigh.

Amitiés,
David

Now, that is a more interesting question.
Apparently Killeen appears to have come to this conclusion from the larger single wound, compared to the other 38.
Now, we can of course question his suggestion of a 'pen knife' (since some of the 38 'smaller' wounds were strong and deep enough to penetrate fat and some organs) but there can be no doubt that Killeen was of the rather firm opinion that two different weapons were used.

I have always felt that two offenders with different weapons is a more credible solution than one offender switching weapon. And again, this would also fit nicely with two soliders being the perpetrators.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

You know why 'Ripperologues' and Ripperology do not make any progress ?
And they do not make any progress.

Because they call 'ridiculous' what they don't understand.

It was, I think the former US president Lyndon Johnson who said about the other former US President Gerald Ford that he was only half a man because he could not chew a gum while farting.

In Ripperology sure 'Ripperologues' brains can't think while laughing.

Well, to suggest that multible stabbing with 39 wounds might be an example control and design and not a result of frenzy is of course ridiculous. So that can't be helped.
As for the rest of your post, I won't comment on its sheer lack of intelligence.

[Fisherman]

Glenn writes:

"I have always felt that two offenders with different weapons is a more credible solution than one offender switching weapon. And again, this would also fit nicely with two soliders being the perpetrators."

What you say makes good sense, Glenn. But wouldn´t you say that IF it was just the one offender, the more we move away from a scenario with an enraged, frenzied killer and into the realms of more controlled, sadistic killers, the greater the chance that the perpetrator changed weapons somewhere along the way - just for jolly?

A man who is overcome by fury would be less credible to do that swop, would he not?

The problems I have always had with the idea of two soldiers stabbing away, is that I would have preferred to have the stabs distributed in another manner than 38-1, just as I find it very strange that it was a silent deed. Two soldiers, at least one of them enraged for some reason and a street-wise prostitute - that does not make up the traditional silent scenario, does it?
Of course it can be reasoned that the second soldier arrived a bit later, and, realizing what his chum had been up to, he delt the coupe de grace to ensure Tabrams death. It is a viable scenario - but it does not explain the cut to the lower body.

The best!
Fisherman

[DVV]

Now, that is a more interesting question.
Apparently Killeen appears to have come to this conclusion from the larger single wound, compared to the other 38.
Now, we can of course question his suggestion of a 'pen knife' (since some of the 38 'smaller' wounds were strong and deep enough to penetrate fat and some organs) but there can be no doubt that Killeen was of the rather firm opinion that two different weapons were used.

I have always felt that two offenders with different weapons is a more credible solution than one offender switching weapon. And again, this would also fit nicely with two soliders being the perpetrators.

Yes Glenn, the so-called "pen knife" was far from a toy. And the ripper case teaches us that different doctors are of different opinions.
Then the soldiers... which ones? The Barrett's ones? So, what did the one who talked with Barrett? Had he already given his "contribution" to the murder at that moment? Or was he to stab Martha 38 times, or 1 time in the chest, after his encounter with the PC??
And does your "customer's quarrel" theory work with 2 persons who, at a supposed crucial time, aren't together?