39 stabs - a frenzy?

[Fisherman]

Hi all!

Todays evening papers here in Sweden top their stories with an article headlined:

"Killed by 39 stabs"

... and that would attract the attention of most Ripperologists, I should say. 39 stabs - that was exactly what was dealt to Tabram in George Yard buildings more than 120 years ago, and the sheer amount of wounds has always led researchers to theorize that the stabs must have been dealt in a frenzy.

The case from todays papers offers refreshing insights in that respect. It is all about a 22-year old girl who had set a date with a 25-year old man, in her place. He says that he cannot remember how the girl got the stabs, he only remembers that they were talking, had some beers, went into the sleeping room and "played" with a knife. Then he supposedly blacks out, and cannot remember anything until he steps out of his shower in his own apartment. End of story.

Sounds like a probable frenzy, does it not? Very archetypically Tabramish - up to the moment when the cops searches his apartment and finds his diary with a passage written four days before the murder: "Soon a murder - know who, when and how".

The police also found a photo of an earlier fiancée of the man, lying on the floor, chained to a radiator, naked and seemingly lifeless. Over her body ketchup had been poured to resemble blood. Apparently the man and his fiancée did this photo session in collaboration with each other, and the likeness of the scene to the one where the killed 22-year old was found is said to be striking.

A premeditated frenzy, perhaps? Or something quite, quite different?

All the best,
Fisherman

[DVV]

Hi Fish,
Very interesting. I've always thought that the alleged "frenziness" of MT' s murderer, even if true, wasn't a decisive point (as it has been used "against" Tabram). Why should it be so relevant?
Frenziness or not, that is not the "key" of this murder, which I don't see as a complete and "frenzied" improvisation.
Jack wasn't completely cool, was he?

Amitiés,
David

[Fisherman]

David asks:

"Jack wasn't completely cool, was he?"

Not if you ask me, he wasn´t. "My" Jack shivered with anticipation as he brought his knife out.

Anyways, although this article and case is truly interesting and a warning to those who need to see a frenzy in the Tabram deed, I do not think it represents some sort of parallel to Tabrams fate. As I have already hinted at in a few posts, I think that what really happened to her can find a very neat explanation, firmly placing her in Jack´s tally.

The how´s and why´s are disclosed in the upcoming number of Ripperologist, and I think that there are two distinctive advantages in not telling the story as yet:
1. Since the staff at Ripperologist have been most gracious to me, I think they should fire the starting gun, and
2. As long as it all is unpublished, I can enjoy my fifteen minutes of fame as a truly ingenuous detective . Once them fifteen minutes are over, though, I realize what destiny awaits me

The best, David!
Fisherman

[DVV]

How could I write "frenziness"?
What an ugly peak of broken English...!
I go now for your "premeditated frenzy".
Nice words.
Sorry again for frenziness... would be: frénésanceté in French...almost science fiction.

Amitiés,
D

[Fisherman]

David!

I´m currently trying to help my fourteen-year old boy with his school French, so I will stay as long away from any discussion on shortcomings language-wise as I possibly can...

The best!
Fisherman

[DVV]

I myself am currently learning Swedish with Glenn's book.
"Revolver" is "revolvrar".
Would you believe it?

Amitiés,
David Uppskäraren

[Fisherman]

No, David, I would not; "revolvrar" is the plural form! "Revolver" in Swedish reads - revolver!

But you seem to be getting a grip - "David Uppskäraren" goes to prove it!

The best!
Fisherman

[DVV]

Thanks Fish,
so, 1 revolver, 2 revolvrar.
About frenzy, it's worth noting that Monro, though he did not consider Tabram as a Ripper victim, repeatedly describes JTR's murders as frenzied.
From his 11 Sept report (about the Pinchin St affair):

"...traces of furious mania (...) evidently under the influence of frenzy (...) frenzied mutilation of the body (...) frenzied murderer..."

Amitiés

[Fisherman]

Yep, David - but to some extent I think that choice of words came about not singularly as a result of the methodology of the mutilations. I believe the astonishment at the speed at which it was apparently carried out played a role too!

The best!
Fisherman

[DVV]

Certainly, and of course, when you have to do something quickly, no wonder if you do it with some kind of frenzy.
And one problem is that frenzy is not a medical term, it's more about feeling.

But since, in his report, Monro focuses on Miller's Court and MK's murder, I'd say that choosing "frenzy", he wanted to express the fact that indoors, JTR had the opportunity to perform his job in complete freedom, with time, and then, showed how he was "enjoying" it.

If we look at it, "frenzy" can be caused by panic (speed work in the streets, at risk), but also by (over)enthusiasm. Both applies to JTR, to some degree, according the circumstances.

Amitiés

[Sam Flynn]

How could I write "frenziness"?

Hello David,

For info: it's "frienziedness"

C'est à dire, "the state of being frienzied".

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Of course the 39 stab wounds is a result of frenzy. I haven't come across any criminal case where such a number of multible stab wounds haven't been a result of frenzy. To state that such multible stab wounds are a result of design and not frenzy is silly beyond the unbelievable.

And of course the frenzied nature of Tabram's wounds is imporaant, because although the Ripper's mutilations were examples of post mortem overkill, they were done with much more determination and focus on certain parts on the body. In any case his attacks were not frenzied in the same way the Tabram murder displayed.

All the best

[Howard Brown]

I agree with Glenn. He might have added that there wasn't this momentary period of " pause and then proceed " as is evident in N/C/ & E's murders...the discrimination the murderer had in the N/C/ & E murders doesn't exist in Tabram's. It took at least 30 seconds to take Tabram out. Thats a lot of frenzy and a lot of time to act it out. Then we have the time it took for him to compose himself on the spot and split.

I would pity the person who would have been unfortunate to have opened their door in George Yard on the second floor that night.

[DVV]

Hi Glenn and Howard,
The "pause and then proceed" is a relevant point.
However, from frenzy, some would easily jump to an unplanned murder and / or to a complete loss of control (of Tabram's killer). I would not.

Amitiés.

ps: Thanks Sam for the correction. Désolé pour mon baragoin!

[Fisherman]

Glenn, Howard; perhaps you did not read my initial post on the thread? It points to a Swedish case where a girl of 22 years was killed by 39 stabs, AND WHERE THERE IS EVIDENCE POINTING VERY CLEARLY TO THE METHOD OF KILLING BEING PREMEDITATED!
The killer stated in his diary that he would kill, and that he knew WHO and HOW she would be killed, and he apparently staged the whole thing in advance, creating a scenario with the help of a former fiancée. They set a stage just like the one that was produced in this killing, photographing it with the ex-fiancée as a stand-in for the would-be victim, and using ketchup to look like blood.

Ergo you have a killing where the 39 stabs were not the result of an uncontrolled frenzy, but instead the fulfilling of a fantasy, premeditated and carried out to fit that bill of fantasy.

And there goes the argument that the Tabram killing MUST have been a frenzy. It is effectively disproven, I´m afraid!

It is another thing altogether that the Tabram deed STATISTICALLY would in all probability have been a frenzy. I´m not arguing against that. But I AM fervently arguing against anybody who tells me that it MUST have been, and I am doing so now using a case that shows us all that this argument must be put forward.

And once one realizes this, it is time to ponder Sams´ point that there will be a number of possible stages inbetween the two extremes. An outcome like the one displayed at the Tabram murder site does of course not have to speak about unplanned murder, just as it does not have to tell us that the murderer lost control completely.

This has always been on the table, and I think it is time to recognize it. In Tabrams´ case, however, there may be no need to make use of these insights. I do think that it was an unplanned deed, and that there was rage and frenzy involved. But the other possibility remains an open one!

All the best!
Fisherman