39 stabs - a frenzy?

[DVV]

Fisherman,
If Tabrams killing was as you say unplanned,would not that count against it being a Ripper crime.It is more than likely that ,had the murderer been the Ripper,he set out that night with an intention to kill,that however and whenever he met Tabram,that intention was there before the first blow was struck.No doubt Tabram was not,as in the case you mention,an intended victim to the exclusion of all others,but an unfortunate woman who,by circumstances,became an easy target.
I will agree with you that to claim unconditionaly Tabram's was a frenzied attack is a bit over the mark.I think it was more a controlled,and intentional series of stabs to satisfy some perverse satisfaction.And like the perpetrator in your example,there would have been clear recollection of what had been done,despite any denials to the contrary.

Agreed!
Until Fish's article...

[Robert]

Actually he meant to do 19 stabs, reached 20 and said, "Oh bugger! Lost count. Got to start again."

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Glenn, Howard; perhaps you did not read my initial post on the thread? It points to a Swedish case where a girl of 22 years was killed by 39 stabs, AND WHERE THERE IS EVIDENCE POINTING VERY CLEARLY TO THE METHOD OF KILLING BEING PREMEDITATED!
The killer stated in his diary that he would kill, and that he knew WHO and HOW she would be killed, and he apparently staged the whole thing in advance, creating a scenario with the help of a former fiancée. They set a stage just like the one that was produced in this killing, photographing it with the ex-fiancée as a stand-in for the would-be victim, and using ketchup to look like blood.

Ergo you have a killing where the 39 stabs were not the result of an uncontrolled frenzy, but instead the fulfilling of a fantasy, premeditated and carried out to fit that bill of fantasy.

Fisherman,

Clearly that is a very extreme - and might I add - very unique example, that hardly can be applied here, especially if you look at the circumstances in which that crime occurred.
I am looking forward to see your article becuse they are always well written, but your ideas are often quite far-fetched, with possibilities stretched to the limit beyond the unbelievable. This comparison is such an example. You are making things way too complicated as usual.

The Tabram murder was most likely what it appears to be: namely a frenzied attack on a prostitute made by a client, probably because the deal gone wrong or she made fun of him. And most likely both of them might have been drunk, which is an even further catalyst for people losing control.
There is no controlled element in the Tabram murder - it is one of many murders performed in rage or sexual frenzy. Quite possible Tabram's killer might have been sexually perverted as well, but hey - we are talking about prostitutes and their clients here, and prostitutes subject themselves daily to more or less abnormal people.

There is nothing strange or complicated about it, and if you then further add the soldier loitering around at the corner of Wentworth Street- Georgew Yrad around the approximate time of the murder, saying that his mate had "gone off with a girl", it all adds up perfectly. Under such conditions there is no need to use very extreme unique examples of crimes that doesn't even fit the Tabram murder in other regards.
There is no need to attribute the murder to a serial killer and certainly not Jack the Ripper.

[Fisherman]

From today´s papers here in Sweden, it can be added that the 22-year old girl had even more in common with Tabram. She lived through the entire ordeal, just like her predecessor. She bled to death, and the doctors involved will not venture a guess as to how long time it took, they only say that "it has taken time".
A forensic scientist involved states that the object of the deed seems to have been desecration. He adds that the girl had been subjected to massive excess violence with elements of sadism involved.
Therefore, Richard, I see no need to believe that the stabs exhausted the perpetrator. He may well have taken his time, perhaps intentionally extending the time of the deed.

The best!
Fisherman

[richardnunweek]

Hi Guys,
Is there not just a hint of 'The thirty nine theory' in here?
The Swedish case involved a premeditated act, and clearly either the number of stab wounds counted were of significance to the killer, or he simply ran out of stamina at the thirty nine thrust.
Of course we obviously are not aware of why that number should have caused a reaction in the swedish case , unlike the Ripper' case when yours truely can make several infamous suggestions....
Mayby the stamina issue is the answer.
If a twenty five year old in modern times has only the energy to inflict that number of wounds with a knife, taking in to account todays nutritional value, then one could hazard a guess in suggesting the killer of Tabram was less in years, certainly not older.
Regards Richard.

[Fisherman]

Hi Harry!

You ask:

"If Tabrams killing was as you say unplanned,would not that count against it being a Ripper crime?"

That it would, Harry! But in the Tabram case, I think that things are not at all what they seem to be. There are so many seemingly illogical elements involved, and I have theorized a lot along the same lines as you before: that the stabbings could be something that satisfied perversion.

But I have now come to the conclusion that we may read it all in another fashion, and conveniently explain why the deed was silent, why it seems two weapons were used, why the outcome fits the frame perfectly and why the Ripper chose his MO. How´s that for ambitions!

Problem is, I won´t let the cat out of the bag just yet, since I have offered my thoughts to Ripperologist. It will appear there in the upcoming issue, and I look much forward to whatever discussion that may arise from it. Up til then, though, I will sit tight.

The best, Harry!
Fisherman

[harry]

Fisherman,
If Tabrams killing was as you say unplanned,would not that count against it being a Ripper crime.It is more than likely that ,had the murderer been the Ripper,he set out that night with an intention to kill,that however and whenever he met Tabram,that intention was there before the first blow was struck.No doubt Tabram was not,as in the case you mention,an intended victim to the exclusion of all others,but an unfortunate woman who,by circumstances,became an easy target.
I will agree with you that to claim unconditionaly Tabram's was a frenzied attack is a bit over the mark.I think it was more a controlled,and intentional series of stabs to satisfy some perverse satisfaction.And like the perpetrator in your example,there would have been clear recollection of what had been done,despite any denials to the contrary.

[Fisherman]

Glenn, Howard; perhaps you did not read my initial post on the thread? It points to a Swedish case where a girl of 22 years was killed by 39 stabs, AND WHERE THERE IS EVIDENCE POINTING VERY CLEARLY TO THE METHOD OF KILLING BEING PREMEDITATED!
The killer stated in his diary that he would kill, and that he knew WHO and HOW she would be killed, and he apparently staged the whole thing in advance, creating a scenario with the help of a former fiancée. They set a stage just like the one that was produced in this killing, photographing it with the ex-fiancée as a stand-in for the would-be victim, and using ketchup to look like blood.

Ergo you have a killing where the 39 stabs were not the result of an uncontrolled frenzy, but instead the fulfilling of a fantasy, premeditated and carried out to fit that bill of fantasy.

And there goes the argument that the Tabram killing MUST have been a frenzy. It is effectively disproven, I´m afraid!

It is another thing altogether that the Tabram deed STATISTICALLY would in all probability have been a frenzy. I´m not arguing against that. But I AM fervently arguing against anybody who tells me that it MUST have been, and I am doing so now using a case that shows us all that this argument must be put forward.

And once one realizes this, it is time to ponder Sams´ point that there will be a number of possible stages inbetween the two extremes. An outcome like the one displayed at the Tabram murder site does of course not have to speak about unplanned murder, just as it does not have to tell us that the murderer lost control completely.

This has always been on the table, and I think it is time to recognize it. In Tabrams´ case, however, there may be no need to make use of these insights. I do think that it was an unplanned deed, and that there was rage and frenzy involved. But the other possibility remains an open one!

All the best!
Fisherman

[DVV]

Hi Glenn and Howard,
The "pause and then proceed" is a relevant point.
However, from frenzy, some would easily jump to an unplanned murder and / or to a complete loss of control (of Tabram's killer). I would not.

Amitiés.

ps: Thanks Sam for the correction. Désolé pour mon baragoin!

[Howard Brown]

I agree with Glenn. He might have added that there wasn't this momentary period of " pause and then proceed " as is evident in N/C/ & E's murders...the discrimination the murderer had in the N/C/ & E murders doesn't exist in Tabram's. It took at least 30 seconds to take Tabram out. Thats a lot of frenzy and a lot of time to act it out. Then we have the time it took for him to compose himself on the spot and split.

I would pity the person who would have been unfortunate to have opened their door in George Yard on the second floor that night.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Of course the 39 stab wounds is a result of frenzy. I haven't come across any criminal case where such a number of multible stab wounds haven't been a result of frenzy. To state that such multible stab wounds are a result of design and not frenzy is silly beyond the unbelievable.

And of course the frenzied nature of Tabram's wounds is imporaant, because although the Ripper's mutilations were examples of post mortem overkill, they were done with much more determination and focus on certain parts on the body. In any case his attacks were not frenzied in the same way the Tabram murder displayed.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

How could I write "frenziness"?

Hello David,

For info: it's "frienziedness"

C'est à dire, "the state of being frienzied".

[DVV]

Certainly, and of course, when you have to do something quickly, no wonder if you do it with some kind of frenzy.
And one problem is that frenzy is not a medical term, it's more about feeling.

But since, in his report, Monro focuses on Miller's Court and MK's murder, I'd say that choosing "frenzy", he wanted to express the fact that indoors, JTR had the opportunity to perform his job in complete freedom, with time, and then, showed how he was "enjoying" it.

If we look at it, "frenzy" can be caused by panic (speed work in the streets, at risk), but also by (over)enthusiasm. Both applies to JTR, to some degree, according the circumstances.

Amitiés

[Fisherman]

Yep, David - but to some extent I think that choice of words came about not singularly as a result of the methodology of the mutilations. I believe the astonishment at the speed at which it was apparently carried out played a role too!

The best!
Fisherman

[DVV]

Thanks Fish,
so, 1 revolver, 2 revolvrar.
About frenzy, it's worth noting that Monro, though he did not consider Tabram as a Ripper victim, repeatedly describes JTR's murders as frenzied.
From his 11 Sept report (about the Pinchin St affair):

"...traces of furious mania (...) evidently under the influence of frenzy (...) frenzied mutilation of the body (...) frenzied murderer..."

Amitiés