Stabbed in the throat...

[Supe]

Fisherman,

So one of us will be wrong - at least.

I rather doubt that. You might be wrong, I might be wrong, we both might be wrong, but I expect I'll have been pushing up daisies long before the question is determined. The validity of Martha Tabram's canonicity will doubtless provide discussion fodder for many more years and that is all to the good.

As it is, while I clearly do not believe Martha was a Ripper victim I do recognize that there are important arguments on the other side, but they are not totally persuasive, which is why I rendered a Scots verdict: Not proven. The arguments for her inclusion in the cano are simply not compelling enough.

And thanks for the kind words about the article in general.

Don.

[Jon Guy]

Hello Don

I have only read your article so far, but I have to say this month`s edition taking us into the Season of the Ripper has to be one the best Rip`s I have seen.

I enjoyed your article on Martha immensely, despite a differing viewpoint, and I agree with your verdict of "not proven". Not enough evidence to be sure, but there are some major flags waving around what scant crime scene evidence we have.

The one criticism I can find is that it would have been interesting to see which contemporary officials felt that Martha belonged to a series. Importantly, Insp Reid thought she was, and Abberline, although he was not involved with that case. I do wonder if Dr Killeen was ever consulted by Phillips, there is certainly no mention of Killeen after Martha, and at 68 Brick Lane, was at the heart of the district throughout.

Looking foward to the next issue !!!

[Supe]

Jon,

I have to say this month`s edition taking us into the Season of the Ripper has to be one the best Rip`s I have seen.

I think I can speak here for the entire Rip Team--Adam, Chris G., Chris S., Eduardo, Jane, Jen, Paul and myself--and say your comment is much appreciated.

Don.

[Fisherman]

Hi Don!

Well, to be honest, I never led on that one of us will be PROVEN wrong, so I donīt see any need for you to doubt my words: At least one of us WILL be wrong.

My own stance is that Tabram does belong to the Rippers tally, and that quite a compelling case can be made for it. Looking at the timing and her injuries, a picture emerges that allows us to fit her quite smoothly into the Ripper jigsaw - the way I see things, that is. More on that is to come in the future in a much acclaimed and insightful publication: Ripperologist, no less! I only hope that Jonīs appreciation of this seasons efforts on your behalf is not dragged in the mud by my contribution...!

All the best!
Fisherman

[harry]

I can see a lot of sense in Sam's contention that the'Cut" was a stab,and that it might have been for the reason he states.At some stage,both the weapon and hand holding it would have been much bloodstained,and a slip by the blade or hand holding it,quite feasable.
A couple of other items.Any ideas as to how the stabs appeared.Were they vertical or horizontal to the general axis of the torso,assuming a broad blade,and does it matter.Secondly,does the exclusion of body part names,(neck,shoulders etc),signify no stabs in those areas?

[Fisherman]

Harry!

These are hard questions to answer. On balance, though, I think that a case could be made for the assailant being right-handed and either working from a position to the left of Tabrams body or perhaps straddling her.
It is a matter of the spots we know were hit. Her right lung was penetrated in two places, but the left one received five stabs. And since the left hand side seems to have been subjected to more stabs than the right, the only way a left-handed person could be fit in with that would be to place him over her head, which I think would be an odd position, especially if things went down fast and frenzied.
We know that the liver was pierced in five places too, and the liver is mainly situated on the lower right hand side of the ribcage. But it stretches into the left hand side to, past the axis of the body, and that can perhaps explain them five stabs. Also, the spleen, a significantly smaller organ, is situated on the lower left hand side of the ribcage, and it was pierced twice.

It is not very much to go by, but what little we DO have speaks in favour of the two positions I suggest, I believe. After that, if we accept that there was only one killer involved, it is better to move with a position on the killers behalf on Tabrams left side.Why? Simply because it would have been impossible for him to straddle her and inflict the cut to the lower body!

Not being able to produce any statistics, I would say that the more probable thing may be to expect that the stabber indeed DID straddle her - it seems the more probable thing to do, since it subdues the victim effectively, denying her to try and flee. It is - if you like - tha classical stabbing position, locking the victims limbs and pressing her to the ground.
But IF he was sitting on her, he must have inflicted his stabs thus, only to rise afterwards, and inflict the cut in an added movement. Which - yes - would be quite odd.

If, on the other hand, we ponder the scenario with a scavenging Jack, then we donīt have this problem...

The best,
Fisherman

[harry]

Thanks Fisherman,
As for position of killer,I'll put a sugestion.She is already stretched out on the landing,maybe asleep or unconcious.(I prefer former).With knife in right hand he quicly straddles her with one knee either side of the head,facing down her body.With left hand over the mouth and chin,he repeatedly stabs nine times to the throat.She is thus subdued and immobilised.Quicly tearing the bodice with a now free left hand,he moves his attention to the breast area,stabbing sixteen times.This done,he uses both hands to raise garments,leaving the lower torso bare for the remaining stabs.Yes,he can cover whole torso area from the position I have described,and it would all take less than two minutes.

[Fisherman]

Hi again, Harry!

Interesting though it may be, this is territory I remain reluctant to enter since it involves too many unknown elements.

The one thing I will say is that when you speak about him "leaving the lower torso bare for the remaining stabs", it must be remembered that the lower body, at least according to Killeen, was only wounded in one place - and that wound is the much debated cut.

I see that you champion a scenario where the killer found her sleeping rough on the landing, and chose to try and silence her by means of the nine stabs to her throat. My own thoughts on that is that stabbing away with a small, thin blade would be a risky way to try and guarantee any silence on his victims behalf. Certainly, if he had performed just the one stab or two, he could not have been in any way sure that it would do the trick, and even nine of them may not have been enough. He had to KNOW that she was silenced as he lifted his hand from his mouth, and it would have been anybodyīs guess, I feel.
Moreover, if she WAS sleeping or unconscious and he felt that he had to set out by silencing her, he would have had plenty of time to decide how to go about it. And the choice he made would have been an inferior one, leaving a number of better options behind:
1. He could have cut her neck, severing windpipe and arteries = home and dry.
2. He could have smacked her head against the landing floor.
3. He could have strangled her.
4. He could - at least - have made use of his very much larger dagger, if he was the sole assailant.
Of course, we can never rely on people to make the right choices at all times, and if he WANTED to stab the throat itīs another thing altogether. But I think it is a matter that takes some hard thinking!

The best, Harry!
Fisherman

[Nothing to see]

Hey FM. Good for you. Keep on finding ways to link Tabram to Jack.
I enjoy reading them.

[Fisherman]

Thanks, NTS. Incidentally, all them balls you have me tossing in the air, will stay up there - log on in a yearīs time and youīll see!

the best,
Fisherman

[Nothing to see]

We're cool man. I hope we're both here in a year. But you'll still be juggling.

Cheers.

[harry]

Fisherman,
Isn't MOST of what is written about the Ripper ,then and now,unknown territory.The confusion about the stabs,is that,except for the throat and breasts,there is nothing to indicate exactly where stabs were made.The lungs penetration could have been from the breast stabs for instance,the heart from a stab through the ribs,and not the sternum.Killeen was not explicit enough,each individual 39 wounds,not fully explained.
Although a suggestion and nothing more ,the landing as a place to sleep is not beyond reason.Alone,at 2am,on a summer day,and after a heavy session of drinking,I feel Tabram would be thinking more of rest than horeing,and the position I described,no more unknown then than it is now.
How quickly the internal throat bleeding would have effect I do not know,but quickly I understand,and the choice of weapon simply that he had no other,and that stabbing rather than cutting with it,a calculated reasoning.
Regards.

[Fisherman]

Hi Harry!

Well, since the sternum covers the heart, the obvious bet would be to go for that stab as the one that also pierced the heart. I really donīt think there can be much doubt about it. The newspaper reports strengthen it, since it was stated that the largest and deepest wound by far was the one over the heart.

In cinnection with this, I notice you write "the choice of weapon simply that he had no other", but I see no reason to discard Killeens contention. There were two blades involved.

I have no problems accepting that she could have been sleeping rough on the landing, though - it was a commonly known fact that people did.

The best!
Fisherman

[harry]

Fisherman,
There must always be doubt,when a situation is open to more than one possibility,and the answer is not known.
Regards.

[Fisherman]

Harry writes:

"There must always be doubt,when a situation is open to more than one possibility,and the answer is not known."

That is correct, Harry. It is also the reason that proper law enforcement has realized that there is a need to tackle the problems that would arise in many a case if we were to allow for doubt. When two people and a cat spend time in a room together with a wooden club, and we subsequently, on opening the door to that room, find that one man has had his head bashed in, most peoples money would be on the other man being the basher.
But the moment when this guy claims that the cat actually did it, he introduces doubt. But the verdict in any court of law, would say that it was proven beyond REASONABLE doubt that the cat was innocent.

That is how I wiew the fact that Tabram had a large hole through her sternum and a pierced heart - on balance, and weighing in all the evidence existing, to my mind there cannot be any reasonable doubt attached to the conclusion that both damages were caused by the same stab.

And if you are of a different opinion, Harry, then thatīs fine by me!

The best,
Fisherman