Stabbed in the throat...

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn writes:
"I'm not so sure that would apply if you had a clean, flat surface - such as the landing of the stairs - available"

Come on, Sam - just how clean and shining do you think that landing of George Yard buildings was? And how was Martha to know, considering how dark it would have been?
Moreover, a concrete landing would not have provided to comfy a bed, would it?
I´m with Frank here, Sam. I think that we must accept that the disarrayed clothing did probably not owe to missionary sex on that landing.

The best, Sam!
Fisherman

[FrankO]

Moreover, a concrete landing would not have provided to comfy a bed, would it?

Hi Fisherman & Gareth,

Thanks for being with me, Fisherman, but I think we've forgotten about George Crow for a moment - or at least, I know I had. After all, he stated it wasn’t uncommon for people in general to lie about on the landing. Still, I'm not going to sweep the cut-like wound on or near the private parts in combination with the turned up skirts under the carpet. Those, to me, remain the major links to Jack the Ripper, regardless of whether this just worked as a trigger for Jack or that he was actually Tabram's killer.


Good question, Gareth, about why Martha went up the stairs, when she could have serviced her punter somewhere at the bottom of the stairs. I reckon that leaves quite a bit of room for speculation, but that’s for another thread.

Now, back to the stabs in the throat, gentlemen - what are your thoughts or ideas about that? Why so relatively many? Does it tell us anything, can it altogether tell us anything?

The best,
Frank

[Fisherman]

Hi Frank!

Yes. sleeping rough was obviously a common practice in the building, but that would not have been an alternative of preference for those who resorted to it. It did not come about out of choice, but out of desperation and no alternatives.

Tabram was no luxury prostitute, admittedly, but her appearance was vital to her chances of hooking punters (excuse the pun!). Thus it stands to reason that she would not have solied her clothes if she could avoid it, just as it stands to reason that concrete landings are hard enough to sleep on - having sex on them would be quite awkward, I believe. Standing up against a wall would be the obvious choice, the classical knee-trembler if you like.

The stabs in the throat? Hard to say. Just like you have already pointed out, and as I have been saying all along, Tabram does not display the unorganized set of wounds that could be expected if it was all just a blind rage. I feel that a possible explanation to the throat stabs could be that she may have made some sort of sound, and he tried to silence her by repeatedly stabbing her in the throat. That´s just a guess, of course, but I have nothing more to offer. I do not think that these stabs point to a man evincing an interest that would eventually turn into throat-cutting. If the man who stabbed Tabram in the throat had had an urge like that, then he could have satisfied it right there and then.
Then again, I do not believe that cutting throats was anything but a necessity to the Ripper either, at least from the outset - a practicality, nothing else. It may well be that he came to like the feel of it as he went along, though.

All the best, Frank!
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Come on, Sam - just how clean and shining do you think that landing of George Yard buildings was?

A damned sight cleaner, and a deal more private than a dark public alley. Again, why go to a landing if she could have used a wall outside? This is, after all, what we are told in the "ripperature" was the usual manner of providing a "twopenny upright".

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn writes:
"A damned sight cleaner, and a deal more private than a dark public alley."

Yes, Sam - but does that amount to more than the choice between lying down on a filthy, bespattered area - and one that was even more filthy and bespattered? Plus, as I have already said, how on earth would she know how filthy it was if it was completely dark? And again, it was a concrete landing, Sam, and concrete landings are not exactly soft, are they? I really don´t think that landing offered a very suitable venue for missionary sex, Sam.

Why did she go to the landing? I dn´t know, Sam, just as I don´t know that she did not lie down on her back to have sex there - I am just trring to make sense of it all. And if we are to make sense of her being on found on that landing, I would say that we know that she was subjected to deathly violence, in all probability supplied by a man who had accompanied her into the staircase. What if they went in there agrreed upon having sex with each other in the lobby or on the stairs, up against a wall - and NOT on the landing - and the proceedings were such that he was infuriated by something and tried to grab her. Then maybe she may have found herself in a situation where he was between her and the exit to George Yard, leaving the way up to the landing her only escape route?
Speaking against this is of course the fact that it seems to have been a silent deed, but it could all have gone down very quickly, ending up with him knocking her on the head as they got to the landing, and thereafter setting about cutting her.

I have further thoughts on the subject, Sam, but since I will be presenting them i an article in a few months time, I don´t really want to elaborate too much on it all here. But I really feel that the deed can be given a logical explanation, leading us to understand when, why and how Jack became the Ripper. And yes, I know it sounds as preposterous as overambitiious, but there you are, Sam.

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Sam Flynn writes:
"A damned sight cleaner, and a deal more private than a dark public alley."

Yes, Sam - but does that amount to more than the choice between lying down on a filthy, bespattered area

I fail to understand the controversy here. Why do we have to make excuses to force Tabram into a "twopenny upright" configuration when she was found sprawled, with legs akimbo, on the landing of some stairs? Just because we read, in innumerable books on the subject, that prostitues "favoured" the method of "assuming the position" against a wall, doesn't mean that they always had to resort to that. Kelly was found on her bed - must we believe that her killer placed her there after strangling her as she prepared to prop herself against the mantelpiece?

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn writes:

"I fail to understand the controversy here. Why do we have to make excuses to force Tabram into a "twopenny upright" configuration when she was found sprawled, with legs akimbo, on the landing of some stairs? Just because we read, in innumerable books on the subject, that prostitues "favoured" the method of "assuming the position" against a wall, doesn't mean that they always had to resort to that. Kelly was found on her bed - must we believe that her killer placed her there after strangling her as she prepared to prop herself against the mantelpiece?"

You could be a bit more generous than that, could you not, Sam? I really don´t think that we can compare an undressed woman´s choice of a bed to Tabrams choice of a potentially filthy, rough and very hard landing. Nor do I think that you yourself believe that to be a viable comparison, if I may venture a guess.

I think, Sam, that if we were to ask an undefined number of prostitutes, back in 1888 and in our own times, how many of them that offered their services flat on their back on potentially filthy, concrete surfaces, we would end up with very few, if any. Those who have beds, like Kelly did, ought to be sorted in under another category altogether.

Tabram was found dead, legs akimbo, yes. And what I am saying here is that if we are dealing with the ordinary scenario, with a pissed off sailor, we must ask ourselves WHY she was found thus. It deviates, Sam, and asks for an explanation.
So does the fact that she had what seems to be a cut in the lower part of her body.
So does the fact that two weapons were used. Why on earth would that sailor change weapons?

I am writing on an article, as mentioned, and I will offer what I think are credible anwers to these questions in it, just as I will explain why I think that the Tabram slaying decided Jack´s future MO. I genuinely think that the evidence on the spot provides us with a possibility to piece all of them things together quite neatly. The frustration of it is that I feel that I will have to wait to go into details until after the publication, which I hope you understand, Sam. But accepting that she met her faith through a man who first decided to have sex with her, then was pissed off by her for some reason, then turned into a raging, frenzied stabber, then turned into someone who pulled her skirts up, then cut her in the abdomen and then swopped his knife for a sturdier weapon, thrusting it through her sternum, that just doesn´t hold up, Sam. It did not go down that way, I feel pretty certain about that!

The best,

Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

You could be a bit more generous than that, could you not, Sam? I really don´t think that we can compare an undressed woman´s choice of a bed to Tabrams choice of a potentially filthy, rough and very hard landing.

A landing, nonetheless - we know not of its condition, but as an "indoor work-surface" it's a safe bet that it would have been somewhat more enticing than the definitely grubby, hard and rough streets outside.

All I'm saying is that there may be a perfectly rational, natural reason why Tabram and her client ended up there so, what is so contentious about suggesting that she laid herself down on the landing? Is it because we really, really want her killer to have lifted her skirt, rather than its having been the voluntary act of the victim herself?

Bet it is

PS: I look forward to reading your article.

[Fisherman]

Hi Sam!

"as an "indoor work-surface" it's a safe bet that it would have been somewhat more enticing than the definitely grubby, hard and rough streets outside. "

But it was not an indoor surface, Sam; George Yard Buildings had galleries outside the house, and the stairs opened up to landings on them galleries.
Which is one of the reasons why I think that Tabram would not have laid down there.

I´m not so sure that I look forward to reading my article myself... But thanks for encouraging me!

All the best, Sam!
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Wood and trees, Jon. Tabram's genital stab wounds were vastly outnumbered by those inflicted elsewhere, especially in her throat. Perhaps her killer had a cervical fixation of a different kind

Hiya Sam

Sorry, I was making a miserable attempt at highlighting the fact that Mary Nichols was similarly found with her skirt raised to her abdomen and only one or two cuts or stabs to her privates only three weeks later.

[Jon Guy]

A landing, nonetheless - we know not of its condition, but as an "indoor work-surface" it's a safe bet that it would have been somewhat more enticing than the definitely grubby, hard and rough streets outside.

All I'm saying is that there may be a perfectly rational, natural reason why Tabram and her client ended up there so, what is so contentious about suggesting that she laid herself down on the landing? Is it because we really, really want her killer to have lifted her skirt, rather than its having been the voluntary act of the victim herself?

Bet it is

PS: I look forward to reading your article.

Hello again Sam

Regarding Martha or client choosing to ascend the stairs, I would say that it was done to avoid patrolling coppers ; it was done to avoid other prostitutes who may also use the building for similar purposes, or it was suggested by her client, or she went upstairs alone to sleep.

The strong indication of strangulation, no noises heard and clenched hands suggest she was laid down ?

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Jon

The strong indication of strangulation, no noises heard and clenched hands suggest she was laid down ?

My point is that she may have been lying down already.

[Sam Flynn]

Sorry, I was making a miserable attempt at highlighting the fact that Mary Nichols was similarly found with her skirt raised to her abdomen and only one or two cuts or stabs to her privates only three weeks later.

At least in Nichols' case we know that the killer was "busy" in her lower abdominal area, Jon, for he cut open the abdomen such that the intestines were able to poke out. Tabram's killer, in contrast (or if he was Jack, on this occasion) seems to have been far more focused on the upper half of the victim's body.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
My opinion is Tabram entered George yard buildings in a effort to escape the presence of a undersirable character, and that effort only allowed her to reach the first landing.
It is then possible that it happened similar with Nichols trying to escape in Bucks Row, Chapman entering number 29, stride attempting to reach the club through the yard, Eddowes trying to get away through the square from church passage, and last but not least, a more than possibility that the man seen[ Hutchinson ?] opposite millers court made his move after Astracan left.
I still see our 'Ripper' as a brute who put the fear of christ up his victims moments before their fate, and definately not the 'How are you tonight my lovely'? charmer.
Regards Richard.

[Sam Flynn]

I still see our 'Ripper' as a brute who put the fear of christ up his victims moments before their fate.

I'd expect more noise, in the form of screams and thrashing about, if he'd allowed his victims that dubious "luxury", Rich.