Burial

[tnb]

Hello there,

Does anyone know where Frances Coles is buried? As I have just mentioned on a Stride thread I have recently read Andrew Spallek's excellent essay on finding the graves as planning for an (aborted) attempt to visit some of the graves while in London recently.

Anyway, Andrew mentions that he couldn't discover where Coles is buried, and gives a very good explanation for why the cemetery mentioned in the newspaper reports of the funeral is almost certainly wrong (not least because he went there and the staff said so!)

I then ended up in the National Archives (formerly the Public Records Office) on Tuesday and decided to do a trawl there; nothing. Even the police files, which list burial sites for all the other victims and the vast majority of the non canonicals (there are 11 victims grouped together) has no mention of Coles'.

Has anyone ever tried to look into this? Any luck?

[wisfisher]

TNB

Hope this helps

The Eastern Post & City Chronicle
Saturday, 28 February 1891

The burial of Francis Coles, who was murdered on the 13th inst. at Swallow-gardens, Whitechapel, took place on Wednesday afternoon at the East London Cemetery, Plaistow. The hearse had been timed to leave the mortuary at two o'clock, but it was a quarter past two when it issued from the yard into the Whitechapel-road. A crowd of about two thousand persons had assembled in the roadway and on the pavement, and on all hands great eagerness was evinced to catch a glimpse of the hearse. It was an open one, revealing a handsome polished elm coffin studded with white nails and bearing this inscription: 'Frances Coles. Died 13th February, 1891. Aged 26 years.'

Tom

[wisfisher]

TNB

I reread Andrews essay and it doesn't seem this is the correct place.
Sorry it didn't help


T

[tnb]

No problem wisfisher! Will do some research (I was going to say digging but realised that would be a little innapropriate)!

Anyone got any suggestions where to start?

Will let you know as and when I have any success - I am quite determined now!

[Carrotty Nell]

I visited the East London Cemetery in Plaistow last summer. I enquired in the Cemetery office about the grave of Frances Coles.

I can only assume that on the previous occasion when they said they had no record of the burial, the person was looking in the wrong ledger or on the wrong page or something because the helpful staff found the record no problem when I was in the office. They brought out a huge old ledger and there she was plain as day, Frances Coles buried on 25 February 1891.

I was advised the grave probably no longer exists but I was given its reference number and location. It was in plot number 21, grave number 19270.

I went up to plot 21 to look even so. It was as described in the East London Observer's account (28 February 1891). It was a rising slope and there was a small poplar. It is unlikely to be the same poplar mentioned in the newspaper account but progeny of Frances' tree perhaps?

The plot is quite out of the way and there were a number of old graves so I had a good look round just in case. There was one very old grave buried in weeds. I was reminded of a song from a near contemporary opera of Frances, Ruddigore:

In a nest of weeds and nettles lay a violet half hidden.

However when I made out the inscription it was of later date and indeed I found no graves earlier than about 1920.

[tnb]

Good work Nell!

[tnb]

okay, so I finally made it to the cemtery in Plaistow this morning and visited the grave of Liz Stride and also did some vaguely investigative wandering around the probable site of Coles' burial. Once again and of course, many thanks to Carrotty Nell for excellent research. I also, for the record, found the staff in the office extremely pleasant and helpful.

I have some quibbles with the plot number Nell was given, but I will explain quite what I mean by that when I am able to upload my photographs from this whole trip. My point in revisiting this thread is in fact to give a proposition. It may be ludicrous, but once it is out there people can let me know what they think.

Coles, as will be evident from the discussion above, has no permanent memorial. I am unaware whether anyone has attempted to trace and/or contact any family, as should they exist that will complicate what I am about to suggest further. Either*way;*I find*this*incredibly sad. Whether*she*was*killed*by*'Jack', her*boyfriend, or*AN Other, or*a*combination*of*those*possibilities, this*was*a*woman*who*at*only*26*died*in*horrific*c ircumstances. And yet she has not even a simple memorial.

Now I know and accept that there are those 'amongst us' who find an interest in gravesites a little morbid. But there are also those, like myself, who feel that if we are to bandy these women's names about in discussion, and look at their mortuary photographs, that the very least we can do is occasionally go and show our respects at their place of internment. What I propose - with very few thoughts yet as to practicality, is that those of us who do belong to the latter category might find it within ourselves to club together to buy Frances Coles a memorial, in time to be laid for the 110th anniversary of her death next Feb. Obviously without an exact spot (unless the cemetery records could supply us with one) a traditional headstone is out of the question. But how about a marker near the back of the appropriate section, along the lines of 'nearby here lie the remains of...' I could set up a JustGiving page relatively easily and I am sure a few of us could find a tenner or so to spare over the next 11 months?

Apologies*for*any formatting*errors*as*I am typing this on my mobile. Any opinions welcome.

[Bulldog]

I am unaware whether anyone has attempted to trace and/or contact any family, as should they exist that will complicate what I am about to suggest further.

There are a no known descendants. If you need further information you can send me a PM.

Your proposal is commendable, but you would need to check with cemetery officials to see if they will allow someone who is non-family to erect a memorial. Some cemeteries require that a person produce a deed to the burial site before they will allow any kind of monument to be erected.

Bulldog

[Chris Scott]

This account may help - it describes the position of the grave in some detail

Daily News 26 Feb 1891

[tnb]

Thanks Chris - that's a very interesting account, although unfortunately it doesn't narrow the site down too much, it is still, as ever, very much appreciated, perhaps even more so in this case as there seems to be relatively little info on Coles out there.


Here is the picture from my March 9th visit - I should explain how I came to suggest this location, as it is a bit different to the spot suggested by Carroty Nell from info from the office.

I began by taking the info Nell had been given to the office (grave 19270, plot 21), where I was directed off towards plot 21. By an odd coincidence this plot was immediately adjacent to that which includes Liz Stride's grave, and as Stride's is part of the farthest right row of its plot, and plot 21 is to the right of this, this would potentially have meant there was ten feet or less between the sites. Unfortunately, as Nell had indicated, the vast majority of graves in this spot are much more recent than the 1890's, and I began to have my doubts about whether this was the right spot.

As luck would have it, however, while I was exploring this area my eye happened to be caught by a number etched into the back of one of the graves I was passing behind - and on exploring a little more I realised that a lot of graves boasted such a number, which was always 5 digits, just like the grave number given to Nell previously. What's more, whilst there were inevitably some gaps, presumably accounting for unmarked graves, fallen headstones and also the occasional stone without a number, the numbers did increase as you travel from the left to right side of the cemetery (facing the fence).

All the numbers in plot 21 were between 14500-15500, some 4-5 thousand away from 19270 .Now why the numbers would seem to go upwards as time decreases I do not know - but clearly this referred in some way to the grave numbers, and as I wandered back along the rows, heading away from Stride's plot and towards the edge of the cemetery, just that happened - the numbers progressed through the 16, 17 and 18 thousands, and by and large the ages of the graves increased. From a purely subjective point of view, this felt more like the end of the cemetery where we might find Coles' gravesite, as opposed to plot 21, and when I reached the furthest point of the cemetery, right by the fence, I finally found the 19 - 20 thousands. All the graves in this range were from the mid to late nineteenth century; interestingly they were also by and large noticeably smaller than many other graves, such as the larger ones in Stride's plot for example, which made me wonder whether this was the 'cheaper' end, which would of course fit with where we may expect to find Coles (perhaps Stride's pauper grave may have been 'fitted in' at the end of a more expensive row?). As suggested in the various newspaper reports, this section was also on a slight rise and populated by a number of trees, including poplars, as in plot 21.

Unfortunately something else happened as the graves got older - there were less and less numbers to judge by. However, the progression remained roughly regular, and there was a noticeable gap between numbers between 18900 - 19000 and 19500-19600. Here is a picture of this 'missing' area, where there are a number of graves lacking any marker:



This is of course in no way decisive, as it needs to be asked why - if they did - the office would have got the plot number wrong, and it remains possible that Nell may have been right all the time; I am simply putting forward - to my mind - a viable possibility.

I have a map given to me by the office on which I have annotated all this which may explain it a little clearer, and which I will scan when I am able.


I have messaged Bulldog asking for the information he kindly offered with regard to Coles' descendents (or lack of), and I will also be getting in touch with the East London Cemetery this week to see quite what the procedure is and/or whether it is even possible to put my above suggestion into action. It does appear that there is at least some precedent with a few people having been responsible for placing various headstones on Kelly's grave over the years, so with a bit of luck I will have a justgiving or similar appeal going by the end of next week, all being well.

Any thoughts and suggestions still appreciated. I would be interested to know what you make of my suggested location too, Nell.

[tnb]

For those who are interested, I have now added a larger article about my visit to the cemetery and, most importantly, about my proposed 'appeal' to fund a memorial to Coles - along with a few misgivings that have been plaguing me lately. I would be very grateful for any feedback on the proposal from anyone interested.

Thanks all.

Nell, if you are out there I would still be very interested to hear your thoughts on the site I suggest.

[Bulldog]

Hi tnb,

I suspect that you may not have the right location. Contemporary newspaper reports described the burial site as "on a rising ground". Curiously, almost every newspaper used that exact same description which makes me suspect that it came from a wire service. Still, the photo you posted doesn't look like "a rising ground".

Bulldog

[tnb]

Bulldog,

Actually it is. I'm not saying I have the right area at all, and I think I make that pretty clear - and obviously there is a lot more work to be done if we are going to look into placing any sort of memorial.

But for the record, the spot I am suggesting is on rising ground, more or less, as in fact are all the plots around the exterior of the cemetery. This is actually pretty hard to explain - when I get the map up it may be clearer. But for now try to think of the cemetery as an oval with one end cut off, which is where you come in. In the centre of the oval, on flat ground, as well as the chapel of rest, the office and a few other buildings, and a wide road, you have a number of plots all on level ground. Around the edges of the oval, however, are more plots which all initially rise at a fairly steep angle to eventually be about 8 foot or so higher than the more central plots, at which point they level off again as they stretch back to the fence. Very few graves are located on the specifically 'rising' section, but all the plots around the exterior could be said to be located on 'rising', or more correctly, risen ground.

You can see what I mean a little better from this photo of the plot including Stride's grave, taken whilst climbing up towards the graves. The arrangement of rising ground and graves is pretty uniform from this plot to all the others:



The photo I posted earlier in the thread and on my website is taken from the back of the plot, which is on a corner, quite literally with my back against the wire fencing which you can also see turning the corner of the cemetery boundary to the left of the photo. I am looking down towards the plot as it comes around the corner, and also towards the next plot, with the central section to my right. If you look to just above the centre-right of the image, all the flowers etc you can see further forward than that point are actually located on ground level. A little beneath that point, you can actually see where the ground begins to slope back down.


Therefore, the grave itself is not specifically on rising ground, ie any more so than the other graves around it, but I couldn't see any that specifically were. The whole plot itself, however is very certainly 'on rising ground', and in fact is no more or less so than plot 21, or Stride's plot, or any other for that matter.

This somewhat amateurish diagram may make all that waffle a little clearer:



Like I say, I am not disagreeing with you, just pointing out a fact which, you are right, is not very well established from the angle of my shot. If and when I get time to go back to Plaistow I will of course do a lot more investigating, and will also get some better angles. I will also get the map up asap.

Thanks for the feedback.

edit - apologies if you have been to the cemetery yourself, in which case you will already know a lot of what I have just written.

[Carrotty Nell]

I for one would back the proposal for a monument of some sort.

I've been doing some genealogical research on Coles. It might not assist with tracing descendants but what I've found is certainly of interest. I won't post it here as it is off topic, but will start a new thread.

[tnb]

Will look out for that Nell - like you I have become rather interested in Coles through this whole thing, and I do feel she is often a sadly neglected figure. It sounds fascinating and I have myself been looking into her father a little, so I will definitely be very interested.

As far as descendants I have spoken with Bulldog via PM and he has sent me some info from which he feels we can be pretty confident that there are no immediate descendents who could complicate matters - obviously that is a shame but it does perhaps simplify things a little. I am sure Bulldog would send you the same if you asked nicely but the chances are you will have uncovered much of it yourself anyway. I am just a little lazy!

Thanks for your support on the proposal too - that is two definite 'yes' votes so far; I think this may just work.