Swallow Gardens

[John Bennett]

Hi John,


sorry about that.....


Try harder next time.......I promise!!!


ANNA.

Hi Anna,

don't worry yerself! It wasn't a broadside. But a lot of old streets (certainly in London) are named after people. It's just that nowadays, the trend has reappeared, but we don't often know who these people are. Their history is yet to be exposed/ruminated upon.

For one, I've tried to find out who Durward Street was named after. Any takers?

All the best
John

[anna]

Hi John,

Thanks for the reply,and the explanation.

Kindest Regards,

ANNA.

[Stephen Thomas]

In Guildford we have a small stepped alleyway called Rosemary Alley. It's original name was Pisspot Alley.

Yes, Philip, them Anglo Saxons woz the boys wot told it like it is, innit. They is not the men to be blamed for nothing. For a couple of hundred years there was a street in the City round Barbican way called Grope C*nt Alley. I wonder why?

Robert

e e cummings jokes on a Jack the Ripper site? Respect! Thanks for the picture. There's a bit of a mystery, to my mind, regarding the architecture of the arches on Chamber Street which I'd quite like to solve, and which is why I started this thread.

Philip and Bulldog

Thanks for your kind comments re my original posts.

[Bulldog]

Widening of the roadbed

As Stephen Thomas's excellent picture clearly shows, the railway roadbed over Swallow Gardens was obviously widened considerably some time ago. It looks like it now extends out at least another 15 ft. beyond the original wall which still shows the outline of the original archway.

Are there any London or railway historians out there who might know when this widening took place?

Thanks for any help.

Bulldog

[sdreid]

So, where would the "X" be placed on the photographs?

[Jake L]

Whoa....indeed a nice set of illustrations posted by Stewart! A couple of excellent ones I hadn't seen!!!

Also, well chosen details by Stephen - thanks!

Stephen, Mr Goad tells me that Little Prescott St is the underpass adjacent to S. Gdns on the West side - in other words, the continuation of Mansell St (also known as "Mansell Passage" in some press reports").



In the pic (facing West), it would be roughly in line with the East wall of the GNR depot. Here we see the railway after widening. The school faced the entry into Swallow Gdns.

In some reports re the Coles case it is mentioned that there were the three N-S passages under the railway. Ergo, these were Abel's Bldngs, Swallow Gdns and the aforementioned Little Prescott St

Are there any London or railway historians out there who might know when this widening took place?
Bulldog

Not an anorak nor historian per se, but as a general nerd I might qualify to attempt an answer

Can't remember the exact year, but I seem to recall that it was in the late nineties. If you look at the 1894 OS, the widening of the tracks (to the North) has already been marked in. The accu tower on the South side next to the Minories underpass (still standing) was built around the same time.


Of course the whole area was being developed around the turn of the century (Mansell St extension, Tower Bridge access, etc. ) However, most of the North side of Royal Mint St had already gone by 1891 - this we know not only from Goads but also Charles Booth's '91 stroll journals.


Stan, the X would be off frame in Stephen's shots. What you see is the mouth of the arch.

/jake

[sdreid]

Thanks Jake, that's what I thought might be the case.

[Bulldog]

So, where would the "X" be placed on the photographs?

About 55 ft. inside the corrugated steel roll-up door, along the right hand side of the archway.

No one gets inside to look at the actual murder site. The door is always closed.

Bulldog

[Bulldog]

Can't remember the exact year, but I seem to recall that it was in the late nineties. If you look at the 1894 OS, the widening of the tracks (to the North) has already been marked in. The accu tower on the South side next to the Minories underpass (still standing) was built around the same time.

/jake

Jake,

Thanks. The reinforced corcrete beam looked a lot newer than that. Perhaps some later repair work.

Thanks again.

Bulldog

[sdreid]

Hi Bulldog,

Do you know why the door is always closed?

[Stephen Thomas]

Hi Jake

Thanks for that great overhead photo of the railway lines between Royal Mint Street and Chamber Street. Mr Cool knows where it's at. I got the idea that Little Prescott Street and Swallow Gardens were the same from the Booth 1898 notebook that says:

Into Royal Mint Street, the whole of the north side with the exc. of 4 houses before you come to the railway is down. Now used as yards for the railway companies. North up passage formerly called Little Prescott Street and Swallow Gardens where one of the Whitechapel Murders was committed under dark railway arch....

The 1898 Poverty Map actually shows 3 walkways under the railway lines, presumably left to right, Abels Buildings, Little Prescott Street and Swallow Gardens.

[Bulldog]

Hi Bulldog,

Do you know why the door is always closed?

Barney's Seafood (a wholesale shop on Chamber Street) uses it for storage. They also keep their van in there. Rob Clack & Philip Hutchinson show a picture of the interior on pg. 181 of their new book. Judging by the general clutter in that photo, you probably couldn't get to the actual murder spot even if you managed to get inside.

I guess that if you really had a compelling need to take a look inside, you could call Barney's at 0207 481 2177 and ask them. The worst that could happen is having them say "NO!"

Regards,

Bulldog

[Bulldog]

Interior of Swallow Gardens

A year or two ago someone posted a photo of the interior of Swallow Gardens that they managed to shoot by propping open the letterbox! Unfortunately, all of the images from that timeframe were apparently lost when the Casebook system crashed last winter.

Bulldog

[Jake L]

Bulldog,

Yes, there definitely are newer bits there, including the concrete work. By the looks of them, the iron pillars could just be nineties. ie. part of the original extension.

Stephen,

I suspect that Little Prescott St may not even really had a name at that point, being a hoarded-up piss smelling alley (see attached article from just after the Coles murder).
Interestingly enough, it doesn't mention Abels Bldngs. (Other articles do mention the 3rd passage, though)


In the Goads, the area is split between three sheets, but the attached bit still gives a fairly good view of the two passages.


/jake

[sdreid]

Barney's Seafood (a wholesale shop on Chamber Street) uses it for storage. They also keep their van in there. Rob Clack & Philip Hutchinson show a picture of the interior on pg. 181 of their new book. Judging by the general clutter in that photo, you probably couldn't get to the actual murder spot even if you managed to get inside.

Due to the dearth of remaining "Ripper sites", I'd think this establishment could turn this into a tourist gold mine, I mean, what else do we have left? Maybe even put a little Ripper museum on site. Send all royalty checks to me fellows.