Who was there and who wasn't.......

[The Station Cat]

I'd be very interested to know if anyone can confirm categorically who (police wise)was present following the discovery of COLES.........

PC THOMPSON is a given.

PC HYDE seems well documented, as being the first to respond to PC THOMPSON'S whistle. (I assume he was on uniformed patrol, can anyone confirm this for me?).

PC ELLIOTT again is well documented and appears to have been on plain clothes patrol (I assume this duty was none Ripper related, can anyone confirm this for me?).


PC LEESON, in his book claims to have been there before HYDE? But I can find no documented evidence of this, other than his own memoirs. He also claims to have known THOMPSON well having been in training together, is there any evidence of this? Did they join together as I've heard conflicting evidence regarding this as well?

[PC2267]

You would think that such things would be well documented. I like, I'm sure everyone else on the forum has, numerous books on the Whitechapel murders. There appears to be different versions of facts as to who and when attended Swallows Gardens (and all the other murders have various discrepancies in the facts, that have occurred and been repeated over the years, but that's a topic for another thread). Likewise with so many books and facts invariably they'll be errors made on the finer details. But basing my response on the first two that come to hand (Capturing Jack the Ripper by Neil BELL & Carroty Nell by John KEEFE). I can provide the following......

PC HYDE was the first uniformed officer to respond to PC THOMPSON's whistle, attends the scene and then goes for a doctor who lives in Dock Street. (Mentioned in both books).

PC HINTON also responds and I assume arrives shortly after PC HYDE, , attends the scene and then makes to Lemen Street station to enlist assistance. (Not mentioned in Caroty Nell).

PC ELLIOTT was on plain clothes duties that night in front of a refinery further down Royal Mint Street (I don't believe these duties had anything to do with the Whitechapel Murders), he appears to arrive on shortly afterwards and also goes to Lemen Street for assistance. (Not mentioned in Capturing Jack).

Insp REID & Insp FLANAGANalso attends the scene following being alerted.

PC LEESON not mentioned in either book and indeed any other book that I have in my collection. I have not read his book, but this appears to be the only source that I'm aware of that puts him at the scene. Perhaps an aspect of glory hunting on his behalf? I would certainly add that any information/opinion he gives on the case would be limited given his junior position within the police at the time. I am not taking any limelight away from him as he certainly was an effect detective in later service and was involved (and wounded at the Sidney Street siege), but even his version of events in that (from his book), should be treated with an aire of caution (certainly according to Paul BEGG).


Going slightly off topic, but evidencing further how facts can become convoluted over time, one only has to consider Amos SIMPSON and EDDOWES shawl....enough said there I think. Also Walter DEW and his "involvement" in the Mary KELLY's case as he was only a very junior constable at the time, but again became very effect in his later career as we all know. He appears to put his two penneth worth in, in his book. But again that's a topic for another thread...

[Rosella]

PC Elliot wouldn't have been on plainclothes patrol as late as February 1891. They were gradually phased out in the early months of 1889 and by 1890 had ceased altogether.

[Jon Guy]

PC Elliot wouldn't have been on plainclothes patrol as late as February 1891. They were gradually phased out in the early months of 1889 and by 1890 had ceased altogether.

From memory, Elliot`s duties may have been keeping an eye on the Royal Mint.

[The Station Cat]

From memory, Elliot`s duties may have been keeping an eye on the Royal Mint.

But we can confirm that he was there and attended the scene, following THOMPSON whistle for assistance.

[Jon Guy]

But we can confirm that he was there and attended the scene, following THOMPSON whistle for assistance.

Yes.

The most detailed timeline I`ve seen for the Frances Coles murder is the Casebook Examiner article "Tom Sadler - 48 Hrs" by Neil Bell and John Simons (Issue 6 Feb 2011).

I don`t have it on file but someone may be able to email you a copy.

[The Station Cat]

I've found more evidence of another officer, who was early to attend the scene, PC Frederick HART (from Forgotten Victims of the Ripper by Paul BEGG). This book also makes mention of PC LEESON, but again this appears to be based on what LEESON's claims in his book.

[jerryd]

P.C. 355 H Ralph Scott and P.C. 327 H Thomas Williams attended the scene. A City Detective was also in the area that night and saw nothing unusual.

[The Station Cat]

P.C. 355 H Ralph Scott and P.C. 327 H Thomas Williams attended the scene. A City Detective was also in the area that night and saw nothing unusual.

Interesting not come across these two before, where has this information come from?

[jerryd]

Interesting not come across these two before, where has this information come from?

PC Scott:

The Times (London).
Saturday, 14 February 1891.

Thompson, as soon as he saw the condition in which the woman was, sounded his whistle for assistance, and this was quickly answered by the appearance of Constable Scott, 355 H, who had only parted from the first-named officer a few minutes before.

PC Williams

Cornwall Cornishman February 19, 1891

The policeman blew his whistle and was speedily joined by police-constable 327 H, on duty in Royal-Mint street.


Also a reference here with a picture sketch of PC Williams and PC Thompson.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=17426

References again to both here in a dissertation written by the late Bernie Brown. Police historian.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-valentine.html

[The Station Cat]

PC Scott:

The Times (London).
Saturday, 14 February 1891.

Thompson, as soon as he saw the condition in which the woman was, sounded his whistle for assistance, and this was quickly answered by the appearance of Constable Scott, 355 H, who had only parted from the first-named officer a few minutes before.

PC Williams

Cornwall Cornishman February 19, 1891

The policeman blew his whistle and was speedily joined by police-constable 327 H, on duty in Royal-Mint street.


Also a reference here with a picture sketch of PC Williams and PC Thompson.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=17426

References again to both here in a dissertation written by the late Bernie Brown. Police historian.
http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...valentine.html

Many thanks for these Jerry the later one certainly makes very interesting reading !!

[jerryd]

Many thanks for these Jerry the later one certainly makes very interesting reading !!

Hi SC,

Yes, Bernie Brown has written some good stuff over the years. His idea was that the ripper was a railway policeman and presents a very nice case for it in another dissertation.