Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

A gang?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • A gang?

    Ok I am just now getting into reading about Emma Smith and the other non canonical victims, something I've only peeked at in the past, but how is Emma considered a victim of JtR when she herself said to the dr. that she was approached and assaulted by a group of men? I'll admit that I'm not done reading but wanted to put this out there

  • #2
    Being attacked at random by a gang carries a whole lot less stigma than being assaulted by a prospective punter.

    I don't see any great connection myself. If people discount Tabram for the lack of similarity, then Smith is certainly out. If you subscribe to a gradual escalation, then she's got to be looked at, along with Millwood.
    Thems the Vagaries.....

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by clark2710 View Post
      Ok I am just now getting into reading about Emma Smith and the other non canonical victims, something I've only peeked at in the past, but how is Emma considered a victim of JtR when she herself said to the dr. that she was approached and assaulted by a group of men? I'll admit that I'm not done reading but wanted to put this out there
      I was impressed by Tom Wescott's book - The Bank Holiday Murders, and his arguments regarding the escalation theory. If, as Tom surmises Martha was stabbed in her private parts, then there maybe a connection from the instrument thrust into Emma. Also if Emma was attacked by a gang, how do we know that Jack wasn't part of that gang and he was the one who used the instrument on Emma ?
      Regards Darryl
      ​​​​​​​

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post

        I was impressed by Tom Wescott's book - The Bank Holiday Murders, and his arguments regarding the escalation theory. If, as Tom surmises Martha was stabbed in her private parts, then there maybe a connection from the instrument thrust into Emma. Also if Emma was attacked by a gang, how do we know that Jack wasn't part of that gang and he was the one who used the instrument on Emma ?
        Regards Darryl
        ​​​​​​​
        I struggle with the idea JTR was part of a gang and decided to go solo. More so than I struggle with Tabram being a JTR victim.

        Another gang member would have looked to save their own skin as the police investigations heated up. This was the age before Cosa Nostra. Also I see JTR very much a lone wolf. It’s one of the reasons he managed to evade capture.

        Escalation did occur from Nichols to Kelly (with exception of Stride for obvious reasons) but who says escalation to the point of Nichols had to have happened locally? He could have been in the area for only for a few months passing through or travelled into the area to murder. Whilst Tabram did have some abdominal injuries they were stabbing injuries. Altogether different from using the knife to open up the body and genitals. Also she was stabbed in the throat and not precisely cut on the left carotid as was done on all of the C5.
        "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
        - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post

          I was impressed by Tom Wescott's book - The Bank Holiday Murders, and his arguments regarding the escalation theory. If, as Tom surmises Martha was stabbed in her private parts, then there maybe a connection from the instrument thrust into Emma. Also if Emma was attacked by a gang, how do we know that Jack wasn't part of that gang and he was the one who used the instrument on Emma ?
          Regards Darryl
          ​​​​​​​
          I really liked Tom Wescott's books too.

          Personally, I find Emma Smith as a victim to be a bit too much of a stretch though.

          Whilst I see Martha Tabram as a possibility, the fact that Emma stated that she was the victim of a gang attack makes me feel that we are complicating things unnecessarily by theorising about her being a JTR victim.

          Al's makes a good point above that there would be less stigma attached to being attacked by a gang than one of your punters, but on balance I agree with Ero in that I'm sure one of the gang members would ultimately have dobbed him in.

          I too see Jack as a lone wolf type.

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't think whoever attacked Emma Smith necessarily set out to kill her. This, along with other factors always makes me think she was not a victim of JtR.
            Best Regards,

            Tristan

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Losmandris View Post
              I don't think whoever attacked Emma Smith necessarily set out to kill her. This, along with other factors always makes me think she was not a victim of JtR.
              Ditto!

              Comment


              • #8
                I think emma smith is too far of a stretch. IMHO millwood is an early attempt and the ripper escalated from there to tabram. Millwood was attacked by a single male and i just dont see the ripper going from a single attack to a gang attack. post mortem types tend to work alone anyway
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Losmandris View Post
                  I don't think whoever attacked Emma Smith necessarily set out to kill her. This, along with other factors always makes me think she was not a victim of JtR.
                  Whoever attacked her didn't mean to kill her, she died of later complications.

                  Agreed, this and other factors rule her out. It's wether you want to look at Jack as an escalation killer. Which to my mind is plausible, but is this attack evidence of a pre mutilation killer? Not at face value, possibly with some modern forensics.

                  Did Jack arrive at throat cutting and disemboweling on a whim? Probably not, so pre Polly crimes have to be looked at, Tabram in particular, but nothing in the Smith case suggests an early Jack, particularly if we doubt Emma Smith's report, which may have been accurate.
                  Thems the Vagaries.....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post

                    Whoever attacked her didn't mean to kill her, she died of later complications.

                    Agreed, this and other factors rule her out. It's wether you want to look at Jack as an escalation killer. Which to my mind is plausible, but is this attack evidence of a pre mutilation killer? Not at face value, possibly with some modern forensics.

                    Did Jack arrive at throat cutting and disemboweling on a whim? Probably not, so pre Polly crimes have to be looked at, Tabram in particular, but nothing in the Smith case suggests an early Jack, particularly if we doubt Emma Smith's report, which may have been accurate.
                    agree al
                    per my previous post...imho millwood was early botched attack and tabram was an escalation. i just dont see the ripper going from a lone attack to a gang attack, and one with no knife used at that. it is a natural progression/escaltion from millwood to tabram to nichols and the rest.
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post

                      I was impressed by Tom Wescott's book - The Bank Holiday Murders, and his arguments regarding the escalation theory. If, as Tom surmises Martha was stabbed in her private parts, then there maybe a connection from the instrument thrust into Emma. Also if Emma was attacked by a gang, how do we know that Jack wasn't part of that gang and he was the one who used the instrument on Emma ?
                      Regards Darryl
                      ​​​​​​​
                      are there any theories or indications that Jack the Ripper was one of many counted as one person?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by clark2710 View Post

                        are there any theories or indications that Jack the Ripper was one of many counted as one person?
                        I personally believe Jack was one person who killed the C5 plus Martha. With Emma If I was a gambling man [ which unfortunately I am ], I would say probably not ripper, but I still think there may be a chance. I was wondering if Jack could have been part of a gang who attacked Emma [ if indeed it was a gang who attacked her], and then went solo later so to speak as an escalation. I would hazard a guess that Jack possibly attacked women early in his career with killing not being the prime motive and he evolved to that.
                        Regards Darryl

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I do wonder if he built up to the murders? Some women approached and strangled to the point of unconsciousness maybe? Not necessarily reported to the police and thus unreported and forgotten about. then as his confidence grew, he moved on to the next stage?
                          Best Regards,

                          Tristan

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Losmandris View Post
                            I do wonder if he built up to the murders? Some women approached and strangled to the point of unconsciousness maybe? Not necessarily reported to the police and thus unreported and forgotten about. then as his confidence grew, he moved on to the next stage?
                            I definitely believe he most likely started by strangulation and graduated from there.
                            "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                            - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by erobitha View Post

                              I definitely believe he most likely started by strangulation and graduated from there.
                              It's no uncommon for serial killers to change how they do things as they go.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X