Bank Holiday murders

[Debra A]

Here's two of them, Tom.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=17649

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=23130

Curious- Wolf Vanderlinden also discovered the US criminal MA Connolly in Byrne's book a few years back when Ripper Notes was still on the go. IIRC that MAC died c 1892 but don't quote me on that.

[Debra A]

Hi, Tom,
Thanks, I was aware of the infirmary registers. If I recall, there was some discussion that Pearly Poll was likely too ill at the time of the murders to have been a participant . . .

Her ties to everyone is certainly peculiar.

This case just gets curiouser and curiouser.

The discussion was about the fact that if that was the same MA Connolly, then she was straight back in the Infirmary almost permanently after Martha Tabram's death and not around in Whitechapel. I haven't seen anyone dispute it was her...not even Tom!

[Joshua Rogan]

Quite possibly she was ill at the inquest, Debra. A lot of reports mention her husky, low voice. One (The East London Observer) goes further and says that;

"Her chest was "queer", she said, so the officer interpreted. "

[Debra A]

Quite possibly she was ill at the inquest, Debra. A lot of reports mention her husky, low voice. One (The East London Observer) goes further and says that;

"Her chest was "queer", she said, so the officer interpreted. "

Yes, I agree, Joshua, that is why the woman with lifelong chest, throat and tonsil problems was first picked out from the Infirmary registers by Gareth Williams I believe. That woman corresponds to the woman I found listed as 'alcoholic' and 'prostitute' in the infirmary records and resident of George St.Spitalfields and areas of SGE, namely a lodging house run by John Satchell at 4 NE Passage. After her inquest appearance she went back in to the Infirmary in SGE and had a lifelong problem with her throat, ending in a tracheotomy.

I read it that Curious's point seemed to be that the woman I'd identified in the Infirmary 1888 was considered too ill to have been the witness at Tabram's inquest, where no one has ever raised that objection that I know of.

[MrBarnett]

The discussion was about the fact that if that was the same MA Connolly, then she was straight back in the Infirmary almost permanently after Martha Tabram's death and not around in Whitechapel. I haven't seen anyone dispute it was her...not even Tom!

Of course it was her, Debs, so she couldn't have been Pizer's denouncer in Church Street or have lived with Polly in the run-up to her death.

[Debra A]

Of course it was her, Debs, so she couldn't have been Pizer's denouncer in Church Street or have lived with Polly in the run-up to her death.

Thanks, Gary. I may have mis-understood Curious's point. Tom has already said he definitely thinks it's her.

[Tom_Wescott]

There's no question Pearly Poll suffered from chest problems. I do however think she conveniently brought on the symptoms on the day of the inquest in her attempt to bow out of scrutiny. It didn't work however and a constable was placed next to her to repeat her evidence for others to hear. She'd just heard reliable testimony to the effect that Martha Tabram was not with her or soldiers and so attempted to change her statement to dovetail with the truth. It didn't work. Why was she lying? Who knows. People lie for all sorts of reason. However, in her case, we have the strange tale of a woman who - of her own volition - went to the police and viewed the body, but refused to make a statement as to its identity until the next day when she returned with a story culled from a misreporting in the Times newspaper. She was gung ho at the first ID parade, then attempted to elude police, was discovered, taken to a second ID parade where she pointed out the first two men brought to her in order to be done with it. She then lies at the inquest, even after Reid first cautions her not to do so.

Gary Barnett and Debs are correct. Pearly Poll would not have been the woman on Church Street as I speculated in the book.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Good Michael]

I've read this book at least 7 times in the past year. I've read parts of it more than that. It's more interesting than any of the others I've read. I think Tom did a great job of not trying to come to any overwrought conclusions. The only pieces of the book I felt didn't belong were the bit about the shawl and the old theory of abortionist accidental deaths and cover-ups. Interesting, but seemed out of place.

Mike

[Tom_Wescott]

I've read this book at least 7 times in the past year. I've read parts of it more than that. It's more interesting than any of the others I've read. I think Tom did a great job of not trying to come to any overwrought conclusions. The only pieces of the book I felt didn't belong were the bit about the shawl and the old theory of abortionist accidental deaths and cover-ups. Interesting, but seemed out of place.

Mike

Thanks, Michael, that's much appreciated. That's why I put them at the back as appendixes and not part of the manuscript proper. At the time I wrote and published the book Russell Edwards had not made it known that he was coming out with a 'shawl' book, so I expected many if not most readers to be completely unaware of there having been a 'Ripper shawl' at all. Little did I know what was on the horizon. As for the old Sun article, I also thought that worth including because it was the only theory that actually centered around Emma Smith, whereas most theories exclude her.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

I was curious about her age mainly because of the coincidence of an American woman of the same name and apparently engaged in nefarious games, cons and thievery, in New York City in the 1870s. If I recall correctly from the book I found, she had disappeared from the scene (or was perhaps in prison) by the 1880s.

Both are interesting. Any new dirt on the London version, Tom?

I should point out that I was too on the trail of what turned out to be the wrong Mary Ann Connelly. I found reports of a woman of that name luring other women and drugging them. I thought 'oh wow!' and wondered if I might not have found information that might implicate Pearly Poll in the actual murder of Tabram. it's a cautionary note to myself and other writers to not get ahead of themselves. Fortunately, I was at least sufficiently wise enough to share the information with Debs who quickly snuffed my candle with proof that it was not the same Connelly. I say 'snuff my candle' lovingly, because Debs saved me from unnecessary embarrassment. But for a while there I thought I'd found myself a real hot potato.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[curious]

I read it that Curious's point seemed to be that the woman I'd identified in the Infirmary 1888 was considered too ill to have been the witness at Tabram's inquest, where no one has ever raised that objection that I know of.

Hi, Debs,
That wasn't my intention at all. :-)

I believe the woman in the infirmary was Pearly Poll.

My use of participant or participated referred to physically committing or assisting with the crimes, not testifying. I think there was some discussion wondering if as a "manly" woman she could have been the killer. Of course, I have no idea when or which thread. Just a memory sloshing around in my head.

Because of the infirmary records, it seems to me the conclusion was reached that she was not physically able.

curious

[Debra A]

Hi, Debs,
That wasn't my intention at all. :-)

I believe the woman in the infirmary was Pearly Poll.

My use of participant or participated referred to physically committing or assisting with the crimes, not testifying. I think there was some discussion wondering if as a "manly" woman she could have been the killer. Of course, I have no idea when or which thread. Just a memory sloshing around in my head.

Because of the infirmary records, it seems to me the conclusion was reached that she was not physically able.

curious

Hy Curious,
Ah, that explains it. Thanks for clarifying.

[curious]

I should point out that I was too on the trail of what turned out to be the wrong Mary Ann Connelly. I found reports of a woman of that name luring other women and drugging them. I thought 'oh wow!' and wondered if I might not have found information that might implicate Pearly Poll in the actual murder of Tabram. it's a cautionary note to myself and other writers to not get ahead of themselves. Fortunately, I was at least sufficiently wise enough to share the information with Debs who quickly snuffed my candle with proof that it was not the same Connelly. I say 'snuff my candle' lovingly, because Debs saved me from unnecessary embarrassment. But for a while there I thought I'd found myself a real hot potato.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Saving a writer from a mistake of that size is a great gift. I was researching local men who were on the Sultana when it exploded. There were two men, in the same vicinity, with the exact same name. I'm so thankful we got the right one because the other one still has local family and a family member came in, sat down at my desk and just wanted to talk about his ancestor -- since he had not made the newspaper story as he was NOT on the Sultana. Thank goodness we could have a fun chat and not a "you made a mistake" chat.

[Debra A]

I should point out that I was too on the trail of what turned out to be the wrong Mary Ann Connelly. I found reports of a woman of that name luring other women and drugging them. I thought 'oh wow!' and wondered if I might not have found information that might implicate Pearly Poll in the actual murder of Tabram. it's a cautionary note to myself and other writers to not get ahead of themselves. Fortunately, I was at least sufficiently wise enough to share the information with Debs who quickly snuffed my candle with proof that it was not the same Connelly. I say 'snuff my candle' lovingly, because Debs saved me from unnecessary embarrassment. But for a while there I thought I'd found myself a real hot potato.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I must say, you do always take bad news well Tom

[Tom_Wescott]

I must say, you do always take bad news well Tom

The truth is never bad news, Debs. Fleetingly disappointing, perhaps, but not bad. Shame you couldn't have been there for Don Rumbelow back in '06 when he was chasing Tim Donovan. And back in the late 80s when that one fellow was chasing the wrong George Hutchinson.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott