Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Due date

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Due date

    Is there any consensus on just how pregnant Liz Jackson was when she died?

    Her 'husband', John/Jack Fairclough/Faircloth/Smith said she was 8 months pregnant when he abandoned her at the end of April, which means she would have been more or less full-term when she met her end at the beginning of June. Yet her mother states that Liz herself said (sometime in May) that she was expecting to be confined in September, which would make it only about 5-6 months. The doctors who examined her remains thought about 6-7 months.

    Who do you think would have known best?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
    Is there any consensus on just how pregnant Liz Jackson was when she died?

    Her 'husband', John/Jack Fairclough/Faircloth/Smith said she was 8 months pregnant when he abandoned her at the end of April, which means she would have been more or less full-term when she met her end at the beginning of June. Yet her mother states that Liz herself said (sometime in May) that she was expecting to be confined in September, which would make it only about 5-6 months. The doctors who examined her remains thought about 6-7 months.

    Who do you think would have known best?
    I would go with the mother and the doctors as their estimates are close. Faircloth did try to make out he wasn't the father of Elizabeth's baby so has a motive to say she was further along, if he did say that. He admitted they met on 6th Oct 1888 and she wrote to her sister in early April saying she suspected she was pregnant. If she expected to be confined in early September (she wasn't specific) then the conception would have been in the first two weeks of December and that would mean she was in her 6th month when she died. The size of the uterus would show the term of the pregnancy to within a couple of weeks and wouldn't have undergone any change in size because Elizabeth died before the birth.
    ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

    I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks Debra!
      I didn't know that Faircloth denied being the father, where did you find that out? It makes sense, in that case, that he would try to make out that she was already pregnant when they met.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
        Thanks Debra!
        I didn't know that Faircloth denied being the father, where did you find that out? It makes sense, in that case, that he would try to make out that she was already pregnant when they met.
        I read it the newspapers a long time ago, Joshua. He also said Elizabeth had talked of 'shunting' the child. I'd have to look back to find it again. There was quite a bit of press about Elizabeth and John's relationship. He was quite a strange character with broad shoulders and pock marked skin. He'd been an army deserter for seven years and wasn't apprehended until 1887 when he was imprisoned for a few months as punishment. He used to hit Elizabeth and she had also been violent towards him. His army records show he had been treated for syphilis and was finally given a medical discharge when apprehended because he was almost completely deaf due to perforated ear drums he'd had since childhood.
        ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

        I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

        Comment


        • #5
          Mmm, he ticks quite a few boxes on the Ripper description list, although he seems a more flamboyant dresser. Shame he's got such a good alibi!

          Here's a description from a former landlady;

          "She remembered the man Fairclough, otherwise known as Smith, well, and had thus described him to the police:--Age about 37; height, 5ft. 9in.; complexion, fair; clean shaven; slightly pitted with smallpox, and deaf. His nose was twisted as if it had been broken, and he was broad shouldered, and had “steelmarks” on the left hand. When last she saw him he was dressed in a light green and black stripped jacket, light striped trousers, with a piece of light check sewn into the waist. He also had on a blue and white striped Oxford shirt, a white muffler, laced boots, light gray or mouse-coloured felt hat, and also carried a soft cap with a peak of the same material."

          Interesting that he had two hats (including a ubiquitous peaked cap!)

          Also, have you any idea what "steelmarks" could be? Butchers would use a steel (basically a file) for sharpening knives, but how would one of those leave distinctive marks? Especially as he was a mill worker.

          Comment


          • #6
            The same landlady (Kate Paine) said Lizzie J was 5 months pregnant at the end of April, so that is certainly in line with her mum and the doctors' estimates, rather than Faircloth's.
            When you say Faircloth 'admitted' first meeting Liz on 6th Oct, is that a later admission, after his inquest statement of "about the end of last November"? Or am I confused?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
              Mmm, he ticks quite a few boxes on the Ripper description list, although he seems a more flamboyant dresser. Shame he's got such a good alibi!

              Here's a description from a former landlady;

              "She remembered the man Fairclough, otherwise known as Smith, well, and had thus described him to the police:--Age about 37; height, 5ft. 9in.; complexion, fair; clean shaven; slightly pitted with smallpox, and deaf. His nose was twisted as if it had been broken, and he was broad shouldered, and had “steelmarks” on the left hand. When last she saw him he was dressed in a light green and black stripped jacket, light striped trousers, with a piece of light check sewn into the waist. He also had on a blue and white striped Oxford shirt, a white muffler, laced boots, light gray or mouse-coloured felt hat, and also carried a soft cap with a peak of the same material."

              Interesting that he had two hats (including a ubiquitous peaked cap!)

              Also, have you any idea what "steelmarks" could be? Butchers would use a steel (basically a file) for sharpening knives, but how would one of those leave distinctive marks? Especially as he was a mill worker.
              He also had a work outfit which was described at the inquest as a pilot jack and corduroy trousers. He wore one pair of trousers over the other.

              He was a millstone grinder, Joshua. He worked on making the huge stones used to mill flour, shaping grooves and applying a metal rim. It was a family trade, a lot of his family were in the flour milling and millstone grinding trade in Isle of Ely, Cambridgeshire , although I believe I found one brother living in close to where the first parts of Elizabeth's body surfaced in Horsleydown, who was a farrier. John travelled to different flour mills over the country looking for the work and was also a peddlar
              .
              The marks were knows as 'metal marks' and caused by fragments of the outer metal flying off and embedding into the backs of the hands and wrists of the grinder.The phrase 'show us your metal' supposedly originates with the millstone grinders- a way to prove your experience in the job by the amount of metal marks on your hands.
              Last edited by Debra A; 05-27-2016, 05:23 AM. Reason: spelling
              ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

              I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                The same landlady (Kate Paine) said Lizzie J was 5 months pregnant at the end of April, so that is certainly in line with her mum and the doctors' estimates, rather than Faircloth's.
                When you say Faircloth 'admitted' first meeting Liz on 6th Oct, is that a later admission, after his inquest statement of "about the end of last November"? Or am I confused?
                It depends which of the inquests account you read. Some say Sept, some say November and then others give the specific 6th October. It's a strange thing to get wrong in reporting isn't it as it wouldn't involve mishearing anything?

                In some accounts Faircloth is also quoted as saying Elizabeth was 4 months gone when they parted, just after they lived together in Whitechapel then Millwall. They parted on 28th April, which he said was the second Sunday after Good Friday. IIRC
                ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Faircloth also claimed he couldn't read or write and that's why he hadn't come forward when the story hit the papers but one person who knew him from Ipswich thought that wasn't true. He'd said the same at the flour mill he was working at but he'd been seen often looking at a notebook he carried in his pocket as if reading. He appears to have signed his army attestation papers though, although he could have just practised his own signature.

                  He also caused a fuss once when a photographer came by the mill and took a group picture of the workers. When the photograph was processed and shown to them all at a later date, Faircloth had shown some annoyance that he was in the front and one of the most prominent in the picture. He had bad hair too apparently, poor sod...stuck up like a brush!

                  Elizabeth threw a brush at him and blacked his eyes at Ipswich and Faircloth wouldn't go in to work, pretending instead he'd been at a funeral some distance away and waiting until the bruising died down. One of his workmates spotted him wandering about when he was supposed to be away. Some of the people who worked with him certainly thought him a bit odd.
                  ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                  I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I've only been going by the easily accessible online reports on this site, so have only come across the one date so far.
                    I guess 8 could easily be mistaken or mistranscribed for 5, depending on handwriting, so Faircloth might have said 5 months...?

                    That is interesting stuff about the metal marks ( l must join your fan club!). He described himself as a millstone grinder and millworker, so I presume he would have done any other jobs once the millstones were in good nick. Spookily, there was a flour mill by Albert Bridge beside Battersea Park, and another at Horsleydown - just a coincidence?

                    Good heavens! You really should write all this stuff down properly, Debra, this is fascinating.
                    Last edited by Joshua Rogan; 05-27-2016, 05:50 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                      I've only been going by the easily accessible online reports on this site, so have only come across the one date so far.
                      I guess 8 could easily be mistaken or mistranscribed for 5, depending on handwriting, so Faircloth might have said 5 months...?

                      That is interesting stuff about the metal marks ( l must join your fan club!). He described himself as a millstone grinder and millworker, so I presume he would have done any other jobs once the millstones were in good nick. Spookily, there was a flour mill by Albert Bridge beside Battersea Park, and another at Horsleydown - just a coincidence?

                      Good heavens! You really should write all this stuff down properly, Debra, this is fascinating.
                      Fascinating yes, shame he an alibi which was checked out by the police.

                      www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                        I've only been going by the easily accessible online reports on this site, so have only come across the one date so far.
                        I guess 8 could easily be mistaken or mistranscribed for 5, depending on handwriting, so Faircloth might have said 5 months...?

                        That is interesting stuff about the metal marks ( l must join your fan club!). He described himself as a millstone grinder and millworker, so I presume he would have done any other jobs once the millstones were in good nick. Spookily, there was a flour mill by Albert Bridge beside Battersea Park, and another at Horsleydown - just a coincidence?

                        Good heavens! You really should write all this stuff down properly, Debra, this is fascinating.
                        That could be the reason. I'd also have to check back to see if some of the different dates given were given by Elizabeth's family and friends and not Faircloth himself.

                        I didn't know about the mills at Horsleydown and near the Albert Bridge. Thanks for that.

                        I would write an article but Trevor would probably rip it off for another revised version of his book
                        ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                        I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Post mortem due dates with the fetus absent is actually pretty difficult. There's an equation as to how much the uterus expands per month of pregnancy, and with the figures given on her uterus (I'm remembering this from years ago, so don't quote me) I think I put her at 7 months when she died. But thats assuming a single fetus. And it could have been twins. Or malnourishment could have severely stunted the babies development, making her full term with a fetus several months too small. And possibly unviable.

                          A woman calculates her pregnancy from her last period. Unfortunately malnutrition, drinking, drug use, certain professions, even disease cause fairly routine irregularity in the cycles of poor women. So she may have no goten her period because she was ill, and in fact gotten pregnant a month or two later, throwing off the count. Doctors go by uterine size if they have the uterus and are fairly confident it is generally intact. They also go by the development of the placenta if they have that. Jackson's uterus may not have been intact. Well it wasn't, in fact. And I don't think they found the placenta. So a doctor may be guessing. Probably a good guess, but still a guess.

                          And a woman contemplating abortion may well shift some dates around when talking to her mother so that the "unexpected" loss of the pregnancy still to come is more believable and possibly less painful. Bump out her due date a few months so a miscarriage appears to come earlier. So the mother may have gotten bad information.

                          To know within say a week, you really need the fetus. Even a small malnourished fetus has passed certain developmental markers capable of dating the pregnancy. Other wise go with a doc's guess, annd know that it has a + or - a month attached to it potentially.
                          The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            There doesn't seem like there was actual discrepancy. Joshua must have inadvertently hit on a report that had it wrong. According to the majority of newspapers I looked at, Faircloth also said Elizabeth was 'about' 4 months advanced when he left her on April 28th. That's consistent with conception some time in December and a confinement in September, give or take., which is what the doctors and her mother said too.
                            ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                            I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Debra A View Post
                              That could be the reason. I'd also have to check back to see if some of the different dates given were given by Elizabeth's family and friends and not Faircloth himself.

                              I didn't know about the mills at Horsleydown and near the Albert Bridge. Thanks for that.

                              I would write an article but Trevor would probably rip it off for another revised version of his book
                              Yes I might if it was an issue that you had gone public with and could not be conclusively proved and there were other plausible explanations for the public to consider
                              The public have been misled far to long by what they have seen and read. The old previously accepted fact do not now stand up to close scrutiny

                              www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X