Was Carrie Brown A Ripper Victim?

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Celesta, You are welcome.

Stan, not only is Brown not listed by name but she was not called "Old Shakespeare" but merely "Shakespeare" by her friends and associates. This caused real problems for the NYPD because there were other people on the Lower East Side, men and women, also nicknamed Shakespeare at the time of Brown's murder. The most famous of these was a woman named Annie Campbell who had been an actress, as Brown had been at one time, and the two women's biographies were mixed up by the police. Much of what we think we know about Carrie Brown is therefore a confusion with the life of Campbell.

Wolf.

[sdreid]

Hi Wolf,

Yes, I'd heard that about the "Old" business. My guess would be that the confusion arose when an individual used the word as a term of derision like someone who didn't like our recent Presidents would call them old Clinton or old Bush. I don't know if that is a common practice in the UK.

[nicole]

Hi all,

Does anyone have any more information on the Room #31 key and bloodied shirt that was 'alledgedly' found in a New Jersey farm shortly after the murder of Brown?? (I personally don't recall ever reading anything about this 'alledged' incident until quite recently.)

Nicole

[sdreid]

Hi Nicole,

I remember reading that and supposedly it pointed to a suspect but the author wasn't releasing the name(??). If I've gotten that right, I'm not sure what the deal was.

[nicole]

Hi Stan,

I remember reading that and supposedly it pointed to a suspect but the author wasn't releasing the name(??). If I've gotten that right, I'm not sure what the deal was.

All sounds a bit sketchy to me! It looks a little like the authorities let Ben Ali free because of 'fabricated' new evidence. Maybe they knew that Ben Ali was innocent and devised the story in order to release him.

Bloody shirt? No. 31 Key? Sounds too good to be true (so it probably is)! Why would a killer travel all the way to Jersey and then not dispose of this damning evidence??

Nicole

[Howard]

'Carrie Brown'

When Carrie was killed Ripper suspect and trained military surgeon George Chapman was most likely in this area.We know he had a barber shop in NJ during this time.He fits the description fairly well of the man seen with Brown.

No crime has to be a Zerox of other crimes regarding a sequential killer.I have researched many serial killers and their murders since 1987 and found this to be true.I say Carrie was close enough!!!

Chapman's wife at the time said that at this time period on one occasion George was attempting to pull a 'large knife' from under a pillow and kill her!She later testified about this incident.What saved her it seems was that a customer came into the shop!

[sdreid]

Welcome Howard,

Chapman isn't at the top of my suspect list but I certainly haven't struck him off.

[protohistorian]

Hi Stan,



All sounds a bit sketchy to me! It looks a little like the authorities let Ben Ali free because of 'fabricated' new evidence. Maybe they knew that Ben Ali was innocent and devised the story in order to release him.

Bloody shirt? No. 31 Key? Sounds too good to be true (so it probably is)! Why would a killer travel all the way to Jersey and then not dispose of this damning evidence??

Nicole

I think so, she fits into my concetion of Chapman JtR, but alas, I am an undergrad and frequently get stuff wrong.

[Supe]

Howard,

When Carrie was killed Ripper suspect and trained military surgeon George Chapman was most likely in this area.

In a book review a couple years ago Wolf was quite certain that Chapman had not yet arrived in the USA when Brown was murdered. I hope he notices the thread is again active and clarifies his assertion. He certainly seems to know the Carrie Brown case backwards and forward so I hope he will straighten out the timing.

Don.

[Supe]

Proto,

but alas, I am an undergrad and frequently get stuff wrong.

So too is Nicole an undergrad--and a particularly bright one.

Don.

[Mort Belfry]

The real question is, if Carrie Brown was killed in the exact same circumstances but in Whitechapel, who would then consider her a strong case to be a Ripper victim?

[Gideon Fell]

No she wasn't another Ripper victim.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Don, your wish is my command.

First off, Klosowski/Chapman was hardly “a trained military surgeon.” He was a surgeon’s assistant which meant he was trained in only the most rudimentary surgical skills. Some have stated that he obtained the rank of junior surgeon, he certainly applied to take the exams, but according to his own papers he was still paying hospital fees to the Warsaw Society of Assistant Surgeons some three months after the exams. He wouldn’t be paying these fees if he was indeed a junior surgeon. It’s not even clear whether he entered the army or not.

Second, Mrs. Stanislaus Rauch, Klosowski’s sister in law, gave evidence at his trial in 1903. She was asked “Had you seen the accused very often before he went to America?” To which Mrs. Rauch replied: “Yes. I came over here in August, and they went to America about the following Whitsuntide.” As Mrs. Rauch had arrived in London in August of 1890 then “the following Whitsuntide” would have been 17 May, 1891, or almost a month after the Brown murder in New York.

Third, Klosowski looked nothing like the man seen entering the East River Hotel with Carrie Brown on the night of her murder. The murderer of Carrie Brown was younger, taller and had blond hair and a blond mustache. Klosowski had dark brown hair and a black mustache.

Fourth, Klosowski’s supposed attack on his wife with a butcher knife has been blown way out of proportion. She found the knife, asked what it was for, was jokingly told he was going to use it to cut her head off, there was an argument and his wife took the knife away.

Fifth, the wounds to Brown’s body were not consistent with those of the Ripper’s victim’s. She was not murdered by Jack the Ripper.

Wolf.

[cknapp]

Wasnt Francis Tumbelty in new york around this time?

[jmenges]

Wasnt Francis Tumbelty in new york around this time?

No.

Tumblety was in all likelihood in Hot Springs, Arkansas on 24 April 1891, since he was robbed there of cash, diamonds and rail road bonds on 17 April 1891.

JM