Does the date make a difference

[FrankO]

Hi Frank O

The abdomen appears to be protected by stays which prevented easy access, and if we assume the murderer was disturbed, it would explain the limited mutilations - as perhaps is also the case with Nichols and Stride.

As for the throat cutting - any number of speculations are possible, different knife, recovering from illness (also explains the gap in time) etc...

Whilst one might argue these differences talk to a different murderer, I think the similarities are too many and compelling in suggesting one man killed all the victims - as Dr Phillips suggested.

Hi Etenguy,

Are you saying that it's established that MacKenzie wore stays? I ask you, because I haven't been able to find any reference to that so far. But even if that were the case, we know that Nichols wore stays, but that didn't keep her killer from making at least one long cut that opened up her abdomen.

Of course, there may have been any reason for why, if he was the Ripper, to deviate from cutting her throat as he did with all the other victims. But, if he had a knife (and, of course, we know he did), why would he not cut the throat, but stab it, instead, and then carry forward in the same skin wound? Why deviate from a known successfull way to kill his victims and, at least, silence them? Even if it were a smaller knife than he used on the other victims, then he could still cut with it in the manner he did before. And, knowing that cutting into his victims, opening up the abdomen and preferably cutting out organs was so important to him that he risked his very life for it, then wouldn't he see to it that he got the right kind of knife to begin with before he went out to murder another victim?

The time gap is perhaps a smaller thing for me. I find the more convincing explanations that he was incarcerated or incapacitated in some way (illness, for example) during this time, that he got close to being captured after Kelly or that something important happened in his life (death of an important person to him, pregnancy of his wife, new-born child).

Anyway, the way I see it, is that the dissimilarities in MacKenzie's murder are so distinctive that I have doubts she was killed by the Ripper. Although I certainly don't exclude the possibility that she was.

The best,
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

Have you got any sources on the amount of throat cuttings and Torso disposals in London in 1888 Sam or is this just personal opinion?

I wasn't referring to the number, merely the method. People have been cutting people's throats and dumping torsos for centuries. Open-air eviscerations on public walkways in crowded neighbourhoods, however, were - and remain - quite the novelty.

[etenguy]

Hi Etenguy,

Are you saying that it's established that MacKenzie wore stays? I ask you, because I haven't been able to find any reference to that so far. But even if that were the case, we know that Nichols wore stays, but that didn't keep her killer from making at least one long cut that opened up her abdomen.

Hi Frank O

I have not established this myself from primary sources, I have accepted references here on the board - I cannot say for certain that is the case if pressed.

Anyway, the way I see it, is that the dissimilarities in MacKenzie's murder are so distinctive that I have doubts she was killed by the Ripper. Although I certainly don't exclude the possibility that she was.
The best,
Frank

Indeed - none of us can be sure - and I guess Phillips encapsulates the dilemma with his view that everything points to one man committing the murders except the wounds being different.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Frank O

I have not established this myself from primary sources, I have accepted references here on the board - I cannot say for certain that is the case if pressed.

Hi Etenguy

As Frank noted, the stays were on Nichols.

However, Dr Phillips noted that:

"the clothing was fastened around the body somewhat tightly and could only be raised so as to expose about one third of the abdomen."

"admit that the appearances observed on left side of abdomen were caused by the pressure of a right hand (possibly to facilitate the introduction of an instrument under the (tight) clothing.


Dr Bond noted:

"I think that in order to inflict the wound which I saw on the abdomen the murderer must have raised the clothes with his left hand

[etenguy]

Thanks Jon Guy

[John Wheat]

I wasn't referring to the number, merely the method. People have been cutting people's throats and dumping torsos for centuries. Open-air eviscerations on public walkways in crowded neighbourhoods, however, were - and remain - quite the novelty.

Hi Sam. I largely agree however I have noticed a tendency for people to overestimate how many violent knife murders occurred in London in the late 1800's. I believe Bill Beadle did some research into this and found that there were relatively few violent knife murders in Whitechapel in the years preceding 1888 at at least.

Cheers John

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, John, and that may well be true. As I say, my point was about the method/kind of offence, rather than the frequency.

[John Wheat]

Thanks, John, and that may well be true. As I say, my point was about the method/kind of offence, rather than the frequency.

Thanks for clearing that up Sam.

[Tani]

I believe she was a victim and the timing is not an issue for me.

I believe this because,

I. She was killed in like manner to the others.

II. Location fits. Time of the murder fits.

III. Dr. Bond thought she was a victim of JTR.

IV. Hit and run style fits. The slit throat.

V. I believe Tabram was a JTR victim and the killer reverted back to the 'pen-knife' used on Tabram. Other knife may have blunted or even broken during the Kelly murder or other activities (if he used it for work). This explains the lack of really invasive knife wounds.

VI. She was of the same class of women and was known to drink. She was also about 40, which fits the main age range sans Kelly.

I think the timing issue would be more prominent were it years after the fact, but not one year (consecutively 11 months). The season also fits (summer). I think also that, as with other killers, there will be unknown victims. I think a copycat 11 months later would be a bit unlikely but not completely. Alice also seemed to be ain a rush; much like Eddowes she may have been making to meet someone.

[Losmandris]

Thanks for getting this thread going again Tani I am always intrigued with AM. I now believe she probably was a JtR victim due to all the similarities highlighted above. For what it is worth I wonder if in the intervening 8 months there could have been an or several attempts at murder, Not necessarily actual attacks with injuries but abortive attempts where for whatever reason he did not go through with it and the potential victim was none the wiser. Of course we would never know, but worth a thought. He certainly had some close calls with some of the actual murders. I am sure if committed a few minutes earlier or later he would have either been caught or scared off for some of them.

[Kunochan]

I have never murdered nor mutilated anyone.

Exactly what a serial killer would say! /jk

[Kunochan]

The term 'Canonical 5' should be retired in favor of 'Macnaghten five' ...

Tom Wescott

YES PLEASE. In fact, this is an excellent suggestion and I'm going to start doing this.

[Kunochan]

Thinking about the time gap...

My wife is a True Crime fanatic, so I've seen about 100 (no exaggeration) crime documentaries by now. I don't think for a second that makes me some kind of crime expert. But I have learned a couple of important things that are nowadays pretty clear:

1.) Serial killers DO change their MO. Israel Keyes and The Long Island Serial Killer are two examples.
2.) Serial killers DO take breaks from killing, sometimes lengthy ones. The Green River Killer and BTK are examples. Usually this isn't because their urges are satisfied, but because of circumstances in their lives.

She thinks The Ripper was also the Thames Torso Killer, based on the possibility of changing MO. It's not an issue I've looked into enough yet to have an opinion.

Anyway, it seems to me Alice McKenzie is a strong possibility as a victim of the same killer as Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly.