Does the date make a difference

[FISHY1118]

That being said, no one can say for sure whos opinion is more right/ wrong than when comparing Mac, Anderson, Doctors or officials.

[GBinOz]

The term 'Canonical 5' should be retired in favor of 'Macnaghten five' since it originated with him. As has already been mentioned on this thread, most of the original officials/doctors propped either for more or fewer than five, so it's a fictional construct that ties squarely to a) Mac's biases and b) the Druitt theory. Even Anderson believed there were six victims.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

Agree. Swanson named 11 victims plus the Thames Torso. If Jack did only five, then some else did more than he did. We don't known how many killers were involved, not which were responsible for whom. And neither did Macnaughten.

Cheers, George

[Sam Flynn]

If Jack did only five, then some else did more than he did.

Not necessarily "some ONE", though. It's not as if throat-cuttings, or even torso disposals, were particularly new or unusual.

[Tom_Wescott]

That being said, no one can say for sure whos opinion is more right/ wrong than when comparing Mac, Anderson, Doctors or officials.

Which is why the term 'canon' is misleading. Canons, by and large, is an agreed-upon, set-in-stone, grouping. We don't have that here.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[rjpalmer]

Hi Tom,

Agree. Swanson named 11 victims plus the Thames Torso.

Hi George,

If you don't mind me asking, what source(s) are you working from?

The list compiled by Swanson listing 'Whitechapel Murders' (first brought to light by Jim Swanson) listed 9 victims (Smith-Coles) and 2 alleged victims (Farmer, Mylett).

However, there's no indication how many of these victims Swanson attributed to the same hand, or whether (more probably) it was just a generic listing, and I can't recall him ever linking a 'torso' case to these.

If Swanson believed Aaron Kozminski was the murderer, he could not have included Francis Coles in whatever tally he had in mind, unless he was making a mental error, because Kozminski was not at large.

One could interpret Swanson's list to mean he attributed 9 victims to 'the Ripper' and the two others were possibilities, but I personally doubt this is what he had in mind.

I think he set Farmer apart because there was some doubt whether she was attacked and set Mylett apart because (like his boss Sir Robert Anderson) there was some doubt in his mind if she was murdered or accidently strangled.

So, as I see it, the list is 9 genuine 'murders' and 2 'possible' attacks, but gives no real insight into Swanson's thinking.

At least, working from this source alone.

Cheers.

[Sunny Delight]

I think Alice McKenzie was a Ripper victim. From what we now know about serial killers the Signature is the same. There is an attempt at post mortem mutilation- some of which attacked the genitals and also the victim was left with her skirts raised. A typical Ripper killing leaving the victim displayed. The throat cutting is also very hard to overlook. This kind of thing is played down on here as though the slitting of someone's throat was a fairly benign event. There was a very very small amount of attacks at that time resulting in throat cutting. It is a particularly gruesome type of act. The severing of the cartoid artery was consistent with the Rippers history.

It must also be said that the apparant suddenness of the attack coupled with the very tight timescale is also consistent with the chance taking of the Ripper. The attack was at 1am- another consistent time with previous attacks. The body was warm when found by the Policeman and this indicates being disturbed.

The more I consider it the more it becomes very convincing she was killed by the Ripper.

[etenguy]

The more I consider it the more it becomes very convincing she was killed by the Ripper.

I agree, Sunny - and the same goes for Tabram. I guess we must answer the question though, that if MacKenzie was a ripper victim - why the gap in time?

[Sunny Delight]

I agree, Sunny - and the same goes for Tabram. I guess we must answer the question though, that if MacKenzie was a ripper victim - why the gap in time?

It could have been any reason. Peter Sutcliffe stopped for a year because his mother passed away. BTK stopped because he felt like it. I would offer a few of my own reasons why I think there was such a gap:

- After the Mary Kelly murder there was hysteria in the area. There had been panic before but that gave way to something more pronounced. The Ripper lived in the area and would have sensed this making his a little more cautious.

- The Police presence was increased after the Kelly murder. There were more patrols, more plain clothes, more searches. It may have been that the opportunity just didn't present itself to murder again in favourable circumstances. We say there was a gap but maybe there were aborted attacks.

- The Ripper may have been satisfied after the killing of Kelly. This satisfaction was the culmination or climax of the other killings. This sustained him for a while before he eventually took.a chance with Alice McKenzie. It wasn't particularly favourable circumstances but he may have been overcome by then with the need to attack again.

- After Kelly's murder George Hutchinson gives a very detailed description of the suspect. Maybe the Ripper became afraid of capture now that his description was in the Press and he read that Hutchinson and the Police were prowling the streets looking for him. Possibly added to the fact that sniffer dogs were rumoured to be a possible usage this may have scared him as no one quite knew the extent of their capabilities.

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

If you don't mind me asking, what source(s) are you working from?

The list compiled by Swanson listing 'Whitechapel Murders' (first brought to light by Jim Swanson) listed 9 victims (Smith-Coles) and 2 alleged victims (Farmer, Mylett).

However, there's no indication how many of these victims Swanson attributed to the same hand, or whether (more probably) it was just a generic listing, and I can't recall him ever linking a 'torso' case to these.

If Swanson believed Aaron Kozminski was the murderer, he could not have included Francis Coles in whatever tally he had in mind, unless he was making a mental error, because Kozminski was not at large.

One could interpret Swanson's list to mean he attributed 9 victims to 'the Ripper' and the two others were possibilities, but I personally doubt this is what he had in mind.

I think he set Farmer apart because there was some doubt whether she was attacked and set Mylett apart because (like his boss Sir Robert Anderson) there was some doubt in his mind if she was murdered or accidently strangled.

So, as I see it, the list is 9 genuine 'murders' and 2 'possible' attacks, but gives no real insight into Swanson's thinking.

At least, working from this source alone.

Cheers.

Hi RJ,

My bad. I neglected to put the comma after victims:
Agree. Swanson named 11 victims, plus the Thames Torso.

I was supporting Tom's statement criticising Macnaughten's canonical five list, and suggesting that the man known as the "Ripper" could have been responsible for either more or less than those five.

Cheers, George

[The Rookie Detective]

I agree, Sunny - and the same goes for Tabram. I guess we must answer the question though, that if MacKenzie was a ripper victim - why the gap in time?

I think the gap in time can be attributed to several different factors that may or may not have played a part in why the killer seems to take a break before resuming proceedings again with McKenzie.

These include...

An inadvertent self inflicted knife injury during the Miller's Court murder, leading to temporary incapacity.
I would be checking hospital records for any male who attended with a significant cut up to 72 hours after the murder of Kelly.
Perhaps an infected wound that needed to be treated.

A significant change/event in the killer's life.
Perhaps a pregnant wife?
Note the gap between Kelly and McKenzie is approximately the same as a full term pregnancy.

A series of unsuccessful assaults resulting in potential victims escaping and therefore not necessarily hitting the press

Incarceration for another crime unrelated to the murders.
I would be checking any male who left prison up to a week before the McKenzie murder and who had served at least 6 months.


All the above are just as likely as McKenzie having not been a Ripper victim.

[GBinOz]

I think the gap in time can be attributed to several different factors that may or may not have played a part in why the killer seems to take a break before resuming proceedings again with McKenzie.

These include...

An inadvertent self inflicted knife injury during the Miller's Court murder, leading to temporary incapacity.
I would be checking hospital records for any male who attended with a significant cut up to 72 hours after the murder of Kelly.
Perhaps an infected wound that needed to be treated.

Hi RD,

Perhaps an inadvertent self inflicted knife injury during the Eddowes murder that required a piece of apron to stem the bleeding?

The Star, 12 October, 1888

"A Suspicious Infirmary Patient.
A report was current late last night that the police suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East-end infirmary. He has been admitted since the commission of the last murder. Owing to his suspicious behavior their attention was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries, and he is kept under surveillance."

Sheffield Evening Telegraph 12 October, 1888

"... The police now have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now inmate of the East End infirmary who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances."

Hampshire Advertiser, 13 October, 1888

"A report was current late last night that the police have good reasons to suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East End Infirmary. He was admitted since the commission of the last murder, and owing to his suspicious behaviour and other circumstances the attention of the authorities was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries relative to his actions before being admitted to the infirmary, and he is kept under constant and close surveillance."

Cheers, George

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi RD,

Perhaps an inadvertent self inflicted knife injury during the Eddowes murder that required a piece of apron to stem the bleeding?

The Star, 12 October, 1888

"A Suspicious Infirmary Patient.
A report was current late last night that the police suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East-end infirmary. He has been admitted since the commission of the last murder. Owing to his suspicious behavior their attention was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries, and he is kept under surveillance."

Sheffield Evening Telegraph 12 October, 1888

"... The police now have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now inmate of the East End infirmary who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances."

Hampshire Advertiser, 13 October, 1888

"A report was current late last night that the police have good reasons to suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East End Infirmary. He was admitted since the commission of the last murder, and owing to his suspicious behaviour and other circumstances the attention of the authorities was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries relative to his actions before being admitted to the infirmary, and he is kept under constant and close surveillance."

Cheers, George

i think the combination of the bloody apron, the reports of the man highlighted in the press reports you posted, and the frenzied cutting and slashing of Eddowes within a time frame of no more than 2 minutes; it goes a long way to suggesting the Ripper cut himself.

And when we apply that to the murder of Kelly; perhaps he hasn't learned his lesson and cut himself with Kelly too?

Perhaps the reason why McKenzie is very similar to Nichols; could incidate the Ripper was going back to basics and sticking to what he could manage in terms of his application of the knife.

He clearly had some anatomical knowledge; but being able to use a knife efficiently is not the same thing.

In other words, he knew where the various body parts were, but he was by no means as skilled with a knife as he perhaps thought he was.

[FrankO]

I guess we must answer the question though, that if MacKenzie was a ripper victim - why the gap in time?

Just as we must answer the question: why the difference in the wounds? Why not 2 or even just 1 clear cut to the throat? Why not at least one deep & long cut to open the abdomen?

[etenguy]

Just as we must answer the question: why the difference in the wounds? Why not 2 or even just 1 clear cut to the throat? Why not at least one deep & long cut to open the abdomen?

Hi Frank O

The abdomen appears to be protected by stays which prevented easy access, and if we assume the murderer was disturbed, it would explain the limited mutilations - as perhaps is also the case with Nichols and Stride.

As for the throat cutting - any number of speculations are possible, different knife, recovering from illness (also explains the gap in time) etc...

Whilst one might argue these differences talk to a different murderer, I think the similarities are too many and compelling in suggesting one man killed all the victims - as Dr Phillips suggested.

[John Wheat]

Not necessarily "some ONE", though. It's not as if throat-cuttings, or even torso disposals, were particularly new or unusual.

Have you got any sources on the amount of throat cuttings and Torso disposals in London in 1888 Sam or is this just personal opinion?