Does the date make a difference

[etenguy]

I don't think Stride was a Ripper victim. The street was far too busy and her killer attracted too much attention to himself. Plus she wasn't eviscerated.

Thanks Kunochan - a lot of different views about Stride. We do not often see Tabram in and Stride out on the Boards though (I think on balance Tabram was more likely a ripper victim than not, also).

[The Rookie Detective]

I don't think Stride was a Ripper victim. The street was far too busy and her killer attracted too much attention to himself. Plus she wasn't eviscerated.

Ah, but the street wasn't busy.

All of the witnesses statements suggest it was quite the opposite.

It's only Schwartz that brings the dramatic noisy street.

Ultimately, Schwartz is there to try and make people believe that Stride wasn't a Ripper victim.

Just imagine how the Ripper would have felt about the murder of Stride if she was indeed a victim of his...
.
Would the killer be proud of their inability to inflict any postmortem injuries?

Or would the killer be aggrieved that the Stride murder was a botched job?

Is that the reason why the Ripper then headed west towards the city; in a bid to cross durisdiction...and perhaps in a bid to find another victim?

Was Eddowes only murdered because essentially; the Ripper failed to clip the ears off of Stride?


Now imagine the Ripper going to the police incognito; presenting an over the top appearance... and concocting a story around an assault on Stride in an attempt to try and convince the world that Stride's murder wasn't the work of the Ripper?

Bs man is portrayed as a street drunk who appears to randomly and publicly assault the victim in the street.

And yet...nobody has ever been able to corroborate anything Schwartz said he saw or heard.

But of course...every convincing lie requires a grounding in truth...

And so... there was a report of a man being chased down the street shortly after the murder was alleged to have been committed.

This was perhaps the killer being chased by someone who witnessed the murder...

but who?

Lave?

Nathan Shine?

Diemshitz?

or perhaps the man with the pipe; ergo pipe man.

Schwartz states that pipeman followed him as he ran from the scene after the antisemitic slur....which nobody else heard.

But if we flip that scenario and consider that Schwartz was the Ripper...and he was being chased by a witness to the murder.

Despite getting close, nobody has conclusively been able to find Schwartz...and it could be said that Schwartz exists only for the murder of Stride and the initial aftermath.

But why would the Ripper go to the police disguised as a non- English speaking Jew?

Well... if the Ripper was involved in the theatre, then perhaps he had the skills to pull it off.

A master of disguise.

Imagine the buzz of sitting in front of the police and knowing that they don't have a clue

And perhaps a link to Eddowes and Kelly's alleged connections to the theatre.

And imagine if the Ripper was known to Kelly personally?

The relative that Kelly claimed worked in the theatre.


We could then look at the fact that Lusk and Reeves; the 2 main men of the WVC, were both involved in the theatre.

Reeves was an astute character actor who at one time lived yards from Bucks Row

And Lusk had strong links to the theater, and not just renovating them.

We also have John Mccarthy; Kelly's landlord, who himself was an actor.

The issue has always been that the anti-semitic rhetoric at the time, meant that the police were bias to focusing on lunatic Jews...

...but the real killer was far more astute.

Imagine also...a killer who presented a different appearance fo different victims... a man of many faces.


The biggest clue is that Stride's murder was either not a Ripper killing OR a botched job by the Ripper.

If the latter, then the killer was enraged and went to find another victim; Eddowes, who suffered the injuries of 2 victims in 1.

The best way to catch a killer, isn't to focus on the murders that went well, but the one time he made a mistake.

The lack of post mortem mutilation on Stride would have really annoyed him.

That's why Eddowes was then obliterated.

But the killer couldn't just leave it be.

He needed to retain some control.

So...he went to the police disguised as a theatrical Jew and pushed the focus onto Stride having been the victim of some random drunk.

But Schwartz didn't appear at the inquest.

I would envisage somewhere that there's a note on a missing police file that states that their key witness has disappeared.

Schwartz was a ghost.

And there's a reason for that.

[Kunochan]

Hi Kunochan

Is there a reason you left out Stride - oversight or do you think a different killer?

I don't think Stride was a Ripper victim. The street was far too busy and her killer attracted too much attention to himself. Plus she wasn't eviscerated.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Kunochan

Is there a reason you left out Stride - oversight or do you think a different killer?

And Coles as well. Though that's a whole other ball of wax.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[etenguy]

Anyway, it seems to me Alice McKenzie is a strong possibility as a victim of the same killer as Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly.

Hi Kunochan

Is there a reason you left out Stride - oversight or do you think a different killer?

[GBinOz]

Thinking about the time gap...

My wife is a True Crime fanatic, so I've seen about 100 (no exaggeration) crime documentaries by now. I don't think for a second that makes me some kind of crime expert. But I have learned a couple of important things that are nowadays pretty clear:

1.) Serial killers DO change their MO. Israel Keyes and The Long Island Serial Killer are two examples.
2.) Serial killers DO take breaks from killing, sometimes lengthy ones. The Green River Killer and BTK are examples. Usually this isn't because their urges are satisfied, but because of circumstances in their lives.

She thinks The Ripper was also the Thames Torso Killer, based on the possibility of changing MO. It's not an issue I've looked into enough yet to have an opinion.

Anyway, it seems to me Alice McKenzie is a strong possibility as a victim of the same killer as Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly.

Hi Kunochan,

Have you considered whether serial killers change their M.O. between family members and strangers? I'm thinking of Chapman (Klosowski) and Deeming.

Cheers, George

[Kunochan]

Thinking about the time gap...

My wife is a True Crime fanatic, so I've seen about 100 (no exaggeration) crime documentaries by now. I don't think for a second that makes me some kind of crime expert. But I have learned a couple of important things that are nowadays pretty clear:

1.) Serial killers DO change their MO. Israel Keyes and The Long Island Serial Killer are two examples.
2.) Serial killers DO take breaks from killing, sometimes lengthy ones. The Green River Killer and BTK are examples. Usually this isn't because their urges are satisfied, but because of circumstances in their lives.

She thinks The Ripper was also the Thames Torso Killer, based on the possibility of changing MO. It's not an issue I've looked into enough yet to have an opinion.

Anyway, it seems to me Alice McKenzie is a strong possibility as a victim of the same killer as Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly.

[Kunochan]

The term 'Canonical 5' should be retired in favor of 'Macnaghten five' ...

Tom Wescott

YES PLEASE. In fact, this is an excellent suggestion and I'm going to start doing this.

[Kunochan]

I have never murdered nor mutilated anyone.

Exactly what a serial killer would say! /jk

[Losmandris]

Thanks for getting this thread going again Tani I am always intrigued with AM. I now believe she probably was a JtR victim due to all the similarities highlighted above. For what it is worth I wonder if in the intervening 8 months there could have been an or several attempts at murder, Not necessarily actual attacks with injuries but abortive attempts where for whatever reason he did not go through with it and the potential victim was none the wiser. Of course we would never know, but worth a thought. He certainly had some close calls with some of the actual murders. I am sure if committed a few minutes earlier or later he would have either been caught or scared off for some of them.

[Tani]

I believe she was a victim and the timing is not an issue for me.

I believe this because,

I. She was killed in like manner to the others.

II. Location fits. Time of the murder fits.

III. Dr. Bond thought she was a victim of JTR.

IV. Hit and run style fits. The slit throat.

V. I believe Tabram was a JTR victim and the killer reverted back to the 'pen-knife' used on Tabram. Other knife may have blunted or even broken during the Kelly murder or other activities (if he used it for work). This explains the lack of really invasive knife wounds.

VI. She was of the same class of women and was known to drink. She was also about 40, which fits the main age range sans Kelly.

I think the timing issue would be more prominent were it years after the fact, but not one year (consecutively 11 months). The season also fits (summer). I think also that, as with other killers, there will be unknown victims. I think a copycat 11 months later would be a bit unlikely but not completely. Alice also seemed to be ain a rush; much like Eddowes she may have been making to meet someone.

[John Wheat]

Thanks, John, and that may well be true. As I say, my point was about the method/kind of offence, rather than the frequency.

Thanks for clearing that up Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, John, and that may well be true. As I say, my point was about the method/kind of offence, rather than the frequency.

[John Wheat]

I wasn't referring to the number, merely the method. People have been cutting people's throats and dumping torsos for centuries. Open-air eviscerations on public walkways in crowded neighbourhoods, however, were - and remain - quite the novelty.

Hi Sam. I largely agree however I have noticed a tendency for people to overestimate how many violent knife murders occurred in London in the late 1800's. I believe Bill Beadle did some research into this and found that there were relatively few violent knife murders in Whitechapel in the years preceding 1888 at at least.

Cheers John

[etenguy]

Thanks Jon Guy