Alice in 1871 a possibly 1881

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks, Michael. Alice is one of the subjects I’m a bit obsessed with. I’ve been meaning to go to Peterborough for yonks, but haven’t got round to it yet. I have, though, joined a couple of local history/genealogy societies to see if I can dig up anything more about her childhood. I think it’s likely that at one time her father was the servant of a senior cleric at Peterborough Cathedral - perhaps the Bishop himself. If so, there may be some records - possibly even photos - of Alice’s family hanging around in the diocesan archives.

Probably wishful thinking. ;-)

You never know Gary. There’s so much info out there to be tracked down. I’m guessing that apart from good research skills sometimes a good old stroke of luck might come in handy? It would be great if you could get the names of those in the group photo of servants. Until then it’s tantalising that to think that it might be a young Alice staring back at us. Good hunting.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Gary,

Thanks. So information we figured out a few years ago regarding Wildbore? I thought you might have run into some new stuff regarding Wildbore and Alice possibly knowing each other while he lived in Tottenham. The Horsenail/nell information is an interesting lead to look at for obvious reasons, though.

Hi Jerry,

No, nothing new, just what we discovered before, the Peterborough, Leicester and Tottenham connections.

Gary

[MrBarnett]

I’ve just read through the Mackenzie Thread over on JTRForums. Excellent work Gary ( and others of course)

Id recommend anyone to follow Gary’s link and have a read.

Thanks, Michael. Alice is one of the subjects I’m a bit obsessed with. I’ve been meaning to go to Peterborough for yonks, but haven’t got round to it yet. I have, though, joined a couple of local history/genealogy societies to see if I can dig up anything more about her childhood. I think it’s likely that at one time her father was the servant of a senior cleric at Peterborough Cathedral - perhaps the Bishop himself. If so, there may be some records - possibly even photos - of Alice’s family hanging around in the diocesan archives.

Probably wishful thinking. ;-)

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve just read through the Mackenzie Thread over on JTRForums. Excellent work Gary ( and others of course)

Id recommend anyone to follow Gary’s link and have a read.

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,

Wylbore/Wildbore and Horsenell/Horsenail are rather unusual names, Palmer is more common.

Wyldbore crops up in Castor and Ailsworth, the two villages on Alice’s father’s postal route - and Leicester and Tottenham.

Gary

Hi Gary,

Thanks. So information we figured out a few years ago regarding Wildbore? I thought you might have run into some new stuff regarding Wildbore and Alice possibly knowing each other while he lived in Tottenham. The Horsenail/nell information is an interesting lead to look at for obvious reasons, though.

[MrBarnett]

Twenty years before she was brutally murdered in Castle Alley, Alice ‘McKenzie’ had fallen victim to the endemic violence of the East End:

“The prisoner [George Palmer]... struck her on the eye with his clenched fist and injured her face. He then seized her by the legs, dragged her downstairs, and threw her out of the house. She was found wandering in the Mile-end-road at 2 o’clock this morning. She had no bonnet or shawl on, her face was bleeding and she was sobbing loudly.”

(From The Sun, 7th January, 1869.)

In 1866/7, within the space of three months, Alice had lost her child and husband while living in Leicester. At the the time her parents and several siblings were living in Peterborough, where she had been born and raised. I wonder how/why she made her way to the East End?

[MrBarnett]

Interesting, Gary. Nice work on all this. Did Wyldbore crop up in Leicester or Tottenham or where? I would add "Mrs. Palmer" to the list of names that resonate. no?

Hi Jerry,

Wylbore/Wildbore and Horsenell/Horsenail are rather unusual names, Palmer is more common.

Wyldbore crops up in Castor and Ailsworth, the two villages on Alice’s father’s postal route - and Leicester and Tottenham.

Gary

[jerryd]

Is that ‘the thing’?

At the risk of sounding like Hallie R., I think her life is at least as interesting as the ID of her killer.

That said, two names with some resonance - Wyldbore and Horsenail - cropped up while I was researching Alice’s story.

Interesting, Gary. Nice work on all this. Did Wyldbore crop up in Leicester or Tottenham or where? I would add "Mrs. Palmer" to the list of names that resonate. no?

[Observer]

Yes very problematic indeed. I don't have a suspect, I think the culprit flew the coop in 1888, or 1889 if Mackenzie was a victim. I doubt he'll ever be named. I agree, putting flesh on the bones of the story with regard to the Ripper saga can only enhance the subject. I enjoy reading such material. Good luck with your research, you never know what might turn up.

[MrBarnett]

That's fair enough Mr Barnett. The reason I asked, and I think you'll agree, if she was a Ripper victim then her murder kicks into touch the candidacy of some of the more popular Ripper suspects. Maybrick, Druitt et al.

I see, Obs. Yes, her candidacy is problematic for several theories.

I’m somewhat uninformed (to put it mildly) on most of the suspect theories.

[Observer]

I’ve no idea. Nor has anyone else. It’s not something that I’ve didn’t much time considering to be honest.

I’m still trying to decide whether she was a prostitute.

That's fair enough Mr Barnett. The reason I asked, and I think you'll agree, if she was a Ripper victim then her murder kicks into touch the candidacy of some of the more popular Ripper suspects. Maybrick, Druitt et al.

[MrBarnett]

Of course it's "the thing" she was either a Ripper victim or she wasn't. But you never answered the question. In your opinion was she a Ripper victim or not?

I’ve no idea. Nor has anyone else. It’s not something that I’ve spent much time considering to be honest.

I’m still trying to decide whether she was a prostitute.

[Observer]

Is that ‘the thing’?

At the risk of sounding like Hallie R., I think her life is at least as interesting as the ID of her killer.

That said, two names with some resonance - Wyldbore and Horsenail - cropped up while I was researching Alice’s story.

Of course it's "the thing" she was either a Ripper victim or she wasn't. But you never answered the question. In your opinion was she a Ripper victim or not?

[MrBarnett]

The thing is do you believe she was a Ripper victim?

Is that ‘the thing’?

At the risk of sounding like Hallie R., I think her life is at least as interesting as the ID of her killer.

That said, two names with some resonance - Wyldbore and Horsenail - cropped up while I was researching Alice’s story.

[Observer]

I’m pretty certain that I’ve discovered Alice ‘McKenzie’ on the 1871 census, living in Woods Buildings and passing herself off as the wife of a hawker named Benjamin Palmer. And there’s a possibility that she was living with Palmer in Bethnal Green in 1881. Unfortunately the woman was recorded in 1881 as ‘Mrs Palmer’.

https://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=29363

The thing is do you believe she was a Ripper victim?