McKenzie - Ripper or not?

[Herlock Sholmes]

It was some eight months after the last murder. Plenty of time for de-escalation.

If McKenzie's murder had occurred between Nichols & Chapman, or any of the 1888 series, what would be the consensus then? I'm willing to bet that most people would accept her as a canonical victim. The evolution of the 1888 series doesn't mean we shouldn't countenance the idea of the Ripper taking a break (for whatever reason) or losing his edge.

Agreed Harry. But I wonder why the killer became almost hesitant in his mutilations though? It’s the scratches that put the most doubt in my mind.

I also wonder if the day is relevant at all? We’ve got no way of knowing of course with the c5 all occurring at a weekend but, at the very least, if the day was relevant to the killer then Mackenzie might be an issue if he only got to the East End at weekends for example due to his work? Speculation of course.

[Harry D]

Agreed Harry. But I wonder why the killer became almost hesitant in his mutilations though? It’s the scratches that put the most doubt in my mind.

I also wonder if the day is relevant at all? We’ve got no way of knowing of course with the c5 all occurring at a weekend but, at the very least, if the day was relevant to the killer then Mackenzie might be an issue if he only got to the East End at weekends for example due to his work? Speculation of course.

Good point about the dates. Saying that, Tabram was killed on a Tuesday and that isn't a problem for theorists.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Good point about the dates. Saying that, Tabram was killed on a Tuesday and that isn't a problem for theorists.

It certainly could be if she was a victim too (and she might have been.) We all talk about the c5 but there might not be as strong a consensus as we might assume. I’d say that in general most agree on Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly (although some discount Kelly.) Tabram is considered by many to have been a victim (I might be overdoing it here but it might even be close to 50-50 on those that go for her as a victim of Jack) I’d guess that less than 50% go for Mackenzie but yes I’d have to admit that that might be due to them accepting Macnaghten. But, as this thread shows, a significant number go for her as a victim. I don’t know of any that go for Coles but they might do and other victims/attacks have been attributed to the Ripper by some. Stride is still debated of course and a case can be made either way.

If there isn’t already one it might be interesting to do an up to date poll on who were Jack’s victims.

Ill ask you and everyone else Harry. Is this topic worth a poll? I’d be interested to see overall opinion.

[Joshua Rogan]

Agreed Harry. But I wonder why the killer became almost hesitant in his mutilations though? It’s the scratches that put the most doubt in my mind.

There could be any number of explanations for the scratches, HS. I don't think the killer sat there doodling them with his knife. Most likely they were incidental fingernail marks, so could have been made at the same time as pulling her clothing up. Or when pulling the skin taut when cutting. They may also have been made by rings on the killer's hand, or perhaps one of those knives with integral knuckle-duster. If I recall there were similar parallel scratches on her jaw. And I think Phillips theorised that the cut to the genital area could have been made accidentally by the killer lifting her skirts with the knife in his hand.

I'm also unsure why you don't consider that the killer was interrupted, this seems the most likely reason to me for reduced mutilations.

I also wonder if the day is relevant at all? We’ve got no way of knowing of course with the c5 all occurring at a weekend but, at the very least, if the day was relevant to the killer then Mackenzie might be an issue if he only got to the East End at weekends for example due to his work? Speculation of course.

The C5 did not all occur at a weekend. I don't think the weekend as we think of it had really been invented. Most people worked five and a half day weeks, only finishing at lunchtime on Saturdays. So the killer striking twice on a Thursday night, once on a Friday night, and twice on (the same) Saturday night doesn't indicate to me that he waited until he'd finished his week's work - three out of the four attack nights had working days before and after.

Of course, he may not have worked at all, or only casually, or cyclically, or not cared if he was dog-tired the next day, or took stimulants, or was an insomniac, etc etc. Maybe he was Tyler Durden?

[Jon Guy]

Hi Herlock
I wrote an article which has all the source material. I`ll see if I can find it. It`s an e-thing and not a wonderful old hard copy, so it`s hit and miss if I can locate it .

Hi HS

As suspected, the link is now dead. It`s Rip 138.
The sources for the smaller knife and more info on the scratches are included. Not my take on them, but the source material.

http://www.ripperologist.biz/pdf/ripperologist138.pdf

[Michael W Richards]

there is no triple event. brown is a common domestic murder solved and her husband the killer. thats so very different than the double event where two prostitutes are murdered by cut throat in the streets mere minutes from each other and unsolved and both victims seen with a man wearing a peaked cap. this is the evidence that ties these two victims together.

and no one lost any abilities between chapman and eddowes. the drs were all divided throughout the series as to medical skill which is to be expected in such a unique and rare case at the time of a post mortem type serial killer and many medicos giving their opinions for different reasons. its really just you cherry picking what you want to fit your convoluted conspiracy theory and what your doing is worse than "guessing". your piling guesses upon guesses upon speculation. and add to that your vivid imagination and your idea borders on fantasy- the victims were killed conspiratorially because they knew too much and were snitches. its laughable and there is not one shred of evidence to support it.

and to think that the killers with a political agenda, be it against the police and or government would target dirt poor street walkers, members of another oppressed group, and not objects of their dislike is laughable. as in all cases of mission oriented killers/groups they would target officials, the rich, the government buildings the police officers the,selves etc, not unfortunate victims of society like themselves. cmon man, get real.

The fact that three women get their throats cut on the same night is just highlighting the commonality of that kind of event. Liz Stride could have been less grievously wounded than Mrs Brown, and that was, as you say, a domestic. As to the second paragraph, there was an opinion, one that mattered most, the one physician who saw the most Canonical victims in death. He saw differences. As to what you believe Ive been suggesting, and on what grounds, there is ample reasoning to remove at least 1 woman from the Canonical Group and potentially 2 or 3, if evidence alone is used. That means that probably 1, and maybe some others, were killed for different reasons. The head in the sand approach to viewing the potential for violence in that area may make the Ripper series more palatable for you, but I am curious to find out what the real answers are. I have some time left, not to much of a geezer at 61, so who knows. Having said that, I believe there is suggestive evidence that Kate Eddowes was up to some business that didn't involve John, but that he was aware of, and that this may tie in with a claim she made earlier in the week to an old landlady. If she was mingling with people she though capable of the types of murders happening that Fall, she was obviously making a mistake.

When you attack my ideas please refer to them, not some garbage about these murders being strung together with a singular theme, they obviously aren't. The evidence suggests that Polly was the first and Annie was the second victim of a lone killer who sought to mutilate the abdomens after deeply cutting the throats. The victims are left on their backs, legs akimbo, first in the street, second in a backyard. The evidence says that Liz Stride had a knife slid across her throat while being choked with her scarf, and it does not completely sever the vessels in her throat. She is left on her side, curled fetally. Kate Eddowes is found in a dark corner with many of the same mutilation characteristics as Polly and Annie, less skillfully accomplished, and new elements that had to consume some time, minute or not,... on her back, legs akimbo, Mary Kellys murder so surpasses these other murders in gruesome scenery its like night and day, leading the contemporary investigators to assume the killer lost his mind in that room. In this group we have 2 women that just left relationships, one was in a love triangle at the time, and we have one victim who by reputation lived a quiet life with her partner...that is contrasted by her last 24 hours. 2 were known to be soliciting at the time they met their killer, speculation exists for the rest of the C5. Only 1 was killed indoors, a woman who just ended a live-in relationship and was seeing someone else at the time. Someone who mistreated her physically.

If youll note there is no suggestion of a politically based series conspiracy, or some overarching theme, the evidence leaves open a very great possibility that the Canonical Group as it exists isn't a very likely "series" by one man. There were plenty of factors that could have caused the deaths of some of these women, leaving all of these murders..and others...and torso's..under one man isn't supportable within the known evidence. There are reason why all of them were killed, and they don't appear to all be the same.

[Sam Flynn]

The fact that three women get their throats cut on the same night is just highlighting the commonality of that kind of event.

Quite so, and we can add to that tally all the other non-canonical murders whose victims also had their throats cut, albeit not on the same night.

[Robert St Devil]

Was there ever any reports of the positioning of Alice's body when it was found? Was she in possession of anything beyond a clay pipe and a bronze farthing? Jack the Ripper had a tendency of turning out his victim's pockets.

its pathetic how much the police reports fall off after the Kelly murder. Where they were willing to draw pictures and take photographs during the autumn of terror, they're not pursuing the case with the same zeal in 89.

Also been wondering if Alice's neck wounds have more in common with Ada Wilson's attack, sure it's been mentioned here before

[Abby Normal]

Agreed Harry. But I wonder why the killer became almost hesitant in his mutilations though? It’s the scratches that put the most doubt in my mind.

I also wonder if the day is relevant at all? We’ve got no way of knowing of course with the c5 all occurring at a weekend but, at the very least, if the day was relevant to the killer then Mackenzie might be an issue if he only got to the East End at weekends for example due to his work? Speculation of course.

Hi HS
The scratches are odd yes, but who knows? he could have been wasted and or ill-not up to snuff. maybe her tight clothes had something to do with it. or like stride and Nichols he was disturbed by something which caused hesitation and then scared off.

[Abby Normal]

It certainly could be if she was a victim too (and she might have been.) We all talk about the c5 but there might not be as strong a consensus as we might assume. I’d say that in general most agree on Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly (although some discount Kelly.) Tabram is considered by many to have been a victim (I might be overdoing it here but it might even be close to 50-50 on those that go for her as a victim of Jack) I’d guess that less than 50% go for Mackenzie but yes I’d have to admit that that might be due to them accepting Macnaghten. But, as this thread shows, a significant number go for her as a victim. I don’t know of any that go for Coles but they might do and other victims/attacks have been attributed to the Ripper by some. Stride is still debated of course and a case can be made either way.

If there isn’t already one it might be interesting to do an up to date poll on who were Jack’s victims.

Ill ask you and everyone else Harry. Is this topic worth a poll? I’d be interested to see overall opinion.

my two cents on probability of ripper victims:

Wilson-20%
millwood-75%
Smith-20%
Tabram-90%
Nichols-100%
Chapman-100%
Stride-95%
Eddowes-100%
Kelly-100%
Mckenzie-90%
Coles-10%

so for murders-I go with a C7-the C5 and Tabram and McKenzie.

[Abby Normal]

There could be any number of explanations for the scratches, HS. I don't think the killer sat there doodling them with his knife. Most likely they were incidental fingernail marks, so could have been made at the same time as pulling her clothing up. Or when pulling the skin taut when cutting. They may also have been made by rings on the killer's hand, or perhaps one of those knives with integral knuckle-duster. If I recall there were similar parallel scratches on her jaw. And I think Phillips theorised that the cut to the genital area could have been made accidentally by the killer lifting her skirts with the knife in his hand.

I'm also unsure why you don't consider that the killer was interrupted, this seems the most likely reason to me for reduced mutilations.



The C5 did not all occur at a weekend. I don't think the weekend as we think of it had really been invented. Most people worked five and a half day weeks, only finishing at lunchtime on Saturdays. So the killer striking twice on a Thursday night, once on a Friday night, and twice on (the same) Saturday night doesn't indicate to me that he waited until he'd finished his week's work - three out of the four attack nights had working days before and after.

Of course, he may not have worked at all, or only casually, or cyclically, or not cared if he was dog-tired the next day, or took stimulants, or was an insomniac, etc etc. Maybe he was Tyler Durden?

good post Joshua
Im thinking that pattern may indicate he didn't work Fridays-sunday. like he wanted to be able to go out, stay out late and have plenty of time to do his thing (and play with his goodies?) without having to worry about waking up early the next morning to go to work. the two thursday night attacks is interesting-like he was itching to get out there.

any type of work that was only Monday-Thursday?

[Sam Flynn]

any type of work that was only Monday-Thursday?

I wouldn't have thought so, Abs. Anyone in regular employment would be lucky to get a weekend off, never mind three days.

[Sam Flynn]

The C5 did not all occur at a weekend. I don't think the weekend as we think of it had really been invented. Most people worked five and a half day weeks, only finishing at lunchtime on Saturdays. So the killer striking twice on a Thursday night, once on a Friday night, and twice on (the same) Saturday night doesn't indicate to me that he waited until he'd finished his week's work - three out of the four attack nights had working days before and after.

The problem is that all we have to go on are 4 instances of successful strikes over barely two months. With such a small sample - in terms of both numbers and time - it's hard to draw any clear inferences.

Also, isn't it more accurate to say that the killer struck, not twice on a Thursday night, but twice on a Friday morning? Ditto for the Double Event and Kelly, on a Sunday and Saturday morning, respectively.

[Michael W Richards]

Im not one for application of Numerology to solve these, Moon phases, nor do I see any strong arguments for specific days of the week/weekend, but I admit Im curious as to why none of the Canonical murders take place after the 9th of the month. There is a large gap in September and Oct between murders, it seems that its either the beginning of the month...or end of the month. In September in particular that strikes me as interesting, because from Polly to Annie is only 10 days...and then this long break until months end. It suddenly resumes the week Kate gets back and the week Liz breaks up with Kidney. Then, a month long gap.

I believe that the man that killed Polly killed so soon after because he either wasn't sated or had increased appetite. So why would he then stop until the end of the month?

[Abby Normal]

I wouldn't have thought so, Abs. Anyone in regular employment would be lucky to get a weekend off, never mind three days.

thanks Sam
probably. but my first job out of college was schlepping Gallo products (booze). Id visit my clients-liquor stores and restuarants- during the week, take there orders and submit them to the warehouse, and the customers would then get there product delivered by our drivers the next day. Since we were closed on Saturdays, and no deliveries would be made, there was no visiting customers on Friday.so basically, we worked Mon-Thursday.

I was just wondering if there could be any type deal like that going on then.