John McCarthy's shop?

[Jon Guy]

As for Jacobs, I haven't seen anything in the accounts of that night that anyone thought it odd that he was heading to McCarthy's for food.

Hello Celesta

I think Jacobs was ok. He did live in the next street to Castle Alley, and Dorset St is only a couple of minutes walk away.

James Brown, a witness at the Stride inquest, was similarly fetching his supper at the chandlers in Berner St at about the same time of night as Jacobs.

If Jacobs was the Ripper, I admire his "carrying his plate " ploy !!!

[Nemo]

Hi all

I agree Caz - that did cross my mind - but she could have begged a little from him without payment

Interesting if the Ripper provided the meal as it may have been drugged...

I would imagine Mary would take the walk to Thrawl St (thanks Sam) to buy food and give her an excuse to see what was going on.

I have speculated on the "fish & chips" thread that her time of eating may coincide with astrakhan's "visit" and it is interesting that he was first espied near Thrawl St.

[Nemo]

Hi Shelley

Would you mind searching the message boards for Kitty Ronan please

Dan Norder very kindly resurrected a thread all about the location of her room entitled (strangely enough) "Kitty Ronan's room"

The jury is still out I think regarding it being either No. 20 Prater's old room
(which may or may not have been above No.13) which was re-numbered as No.12 or in the No.12 across the other side of the pump
Thanks

Nemo

[Celesta]

Hi Jon,

I think he was okay, too. I get the sense he was going about his business and got caught up in a hassle.

Although, I remember when I first read about him I thought "Ah ha! Clever ploy that one! Carrying that dinner plate as a tool for misdirection! This has to be the killer!"

Thanks, Jon.

[Jon Guy]

Funnily enough, Celesta, the mental image I have of Jacobs reluctantly standing guard by the body of McKenzie with his plate in hand whilst P.C. Andrews ran off to fetch help is one of those funny yet tragic and poignant moments that has stuck with me.

[Stephen Thomas]

As for Jacobs, I haven't seen anything in the accounts of that night that anyone thought it odd that he was heading to McCarthy's for food.

Hi Celesta

Recently I had a very pleasant chat with McCarthy's great grand-daughter Fiona and she mentioned that he sold a lot of Jewish food. This has never been mentioned in the literature to my knowledge but makes perfect sense given the Spitalfields demograhics. Supply and demand and all that. Here's a drawing of Jacobs. My best wishes to your good self as always.

[Nemo]

That's fantastic Stephen

I wonder if McCarthy's kosher food was good enough to attract "toffs" of the Jewish persuasion...

All this begs the question, would they have food served onto the plate and take it away with them? - in which case a better carrier/container for the food could be had surely?

Or was it like a "bring your own plate" cafe with some type of table/seating arrangements?

PS
I wonder why McCarthy's shop wasn't more busy on the Friday night at around midnight. You'd have thought he would have some food preparation going on and a possible stream of customers.

[Sam Flynn]

Recently I had a very pleasant chat with McCarthy's great grand-daughter Fiona and she mentioned that he sold a lot of Jewish food.

Would that have been the case in 1888, Stephen - or did McCarthy branch out later, when his "empire" had become more established?

[Stephen Thomas]

Would that have been the case in 1888, Stephen - or did McCarthy branch out later, when his "empire" had become more established?

I had, of course, thought of that, Sam. The discussion with Fiona was about what the 'shed' was used for and she mentioned Jewish food which I hadn't associated with McCarthy before, so I thought I'd mention it here. Most of the Asian shops where I live in North London have posters in their windows advertising Polish foodstuffs. Plus ca change and all that.

[Jon Guy]

I wonder if McCarthy's kosher food was good enough to attract "toffs" of the Jewish persuasion...

All this begs the question, would they have food served onto the plate and take it away with them? - in which case a better carrier/container for the food could be had surely?

Or was it like a "bring your own plate" cafe with some type of table/seating arrangements?

Hello Nemo

Any "Toffs" would have had their own kitchens in their homes.
Many of the poor in Whitechapel didn`t have kitchens, or the use of an oven so Pubs were important for food, as were other places to buy cooked food.
Lodging houses did have their own kitchens, and these were the heart of the Lodging House.

I don`t think McCarthy`s was a sit in and eat place, it would have had an oven to cook and you brought your own plate.

[Nemo]

With a few benches in the shed?

[Chava]

I wonder what kind of 'Jewish food' he sold! It wouldn't have been kosher. But he could have had some old biddy cookin up gefilte fish and so on without kosher supervision and it would still be the right kind of recipes.

[Celesta]

Hi Celesta

Recently I had a very pleasant chat with McCarthy's great grand-daughter Fiona and she mentioned that he sold a lot of Jewish food. This has never been mentioned in the literature to my knowledge but makes perfect sense given the Spitalfields demograhics. Supply and demand and all that. Here's a drawing of Jacobs. My best wishes to your good self as always.

[ATTACH]4541[/ATTACH]

Thank you, kind sir! My best to you as well.

This is excellent information and it makes perfect sense. McCarthy would likely be the sort of man who would branch out in this way.

The research just turns up more and more interesting information, doesn't it? Even if he was not doing it in a big way as yet in 1888, he still might have been a convenient stop for local Jewish folk. Kind of makes you think that the place might have been a bit more crowded on a Friday night than I had previously imagined. Of course, it was nasty weather the night of MJK's murder.

Thank you, Stephen. Did Fiona have any pictures of McCarthy's? How amazing to be able to meet with her.

Best,

Cel

[Celesta]

Funnily enough, Celesta, the mental image I have of Jacobs reluctantly standing guard by the body of McKenzie with his plate in hand whilst P.C. Andrews ran off to fetch help is one of those funny yet tragic and poignant moments that has stuck with me.

Me, too! Awful enough having to stand guard over a murder victim, checking over your shoulder regularly to make sure the murderous fiend isn't sneaking up on you, without having to balance a woefully empty dinner plate. Of course, by this time, the poor guy had probably lost any semblance of appetite.

[Sam Flynn]

McCarthy would likely be the sort of man who would branch out in this way. Even if he was not doing it in a big way as yet in 1888, he still might have been a convenient stop for local Jewish folk. Kind of makes you think that the place might have been a bit more crowded on a Friday night than I had previously imagined.

Perhaps not so crowded, Cel. From what I remember there were comparatively few Jews living in and around Dorset Street in 1888.