John McCarthy's shop?

[Nemo]

Isaac Jacob's explanation as to why he was in the vicinity was because he was on his way to McCarthy's Chandlers shop to get some supper. However, it is reported that he was heading for Wentworth St.

Does this have any connection with John Mccarthy's shop in Dorset St. ?

Also, I took a chandlers to be a candle supplier - possibly with other hardware for sale - not a place to buy food.

Would the Dorset St. chandler shop sell food also? - A fish supper for example?

[The English Gardener]

Chandlers by that time were pretty much general purpose stores that sold whatever they felt like. I've heard this one before and I too raised an eyebrow. But why not? Anything that turns a buck.......

[Chava]

A chandler could sell all sorts of stuff, but I doubt he'd sell fish and chips. Too much room would be taken up by the frier and the extra staff. That wasn't a big area. From the various reports, it sounds like McCarthy sold groceries etc to the people in the court. In those days you could buy a 'pinch' of tea--enough for a cup or two--for 1/2d, and similarly small amounts of other food. So the very poorest didn't have to fork out for a larger amount--which would work out cheaper by the serving but which they couldn't afford. That's the sort of store I believe McCarthy ran. But if he had gotten into fish and chips, I think we'd know about it. And if Kelly had bought said fish and chips at his place, why didn't he tell the police? On balance I doubt you'd get your fish supper at McCarthy's!

[Nemo]

Thanks for that guys - pretty much as I thought regarding the supper

Does anyone know if McCarthy's shop at Wentworth St had any connection with John McCarthy of Dorset St.?

[Jon Guy]

Hello Nemo

Pls find the following from the McKenzie inquest regarding Jacobs :

About ten minutes to 1 this morning I left home to buy some supper in M'Carthy's in Dorset-street. I had occasion to pass Newcastle-place into Old Castle-street. When I got to Cocoanut-place a constable ran up to me; I stopped. He said, "Where have you been?" I replied, "I have been nowhere, I am just going on an errand, and have just left my home."

As you can see, he was heading for Dorset St for his supper with plate in hand.

The fact that he was carrying a plate for his supper means we should show caution in saying McCarthy`s would not sell cooked food as a Chandler.

I believe the reason that Wentworth St is mentioned is that Jacobs was on or very close to Wentworth St when he was stopped by the Police.

[Sam Flynn]

A chandler could sell all sorts of stuff, but I doubt he'd sell fish and chips.

Chandlers did sell fish and chips, however, Chava. Indeed, mobile (hand-carted) fish-friers had been common on the streets of London since at least Mayhew's day - so it's not so surprising that such provender should be served up in a static location like a small shop.

Too much room would be taken up by the frier and the extra staff.

You're thinking of the modern chippy, perhaps - all a single-handed fish-frying operation would need is a saucepan of oil and a fire on which to heat it.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Sam

We crossed posts there, happy you could confirm the Chandler as selling hot food !!!!!

[Nemo]

Thanks for that Jon & Sam

I was contemplating seeming coincidental connections between Alice and Dorset St.

..but this would have implications in the Kelly murder as McCarthy may have served her the supper and not said anything about it at the time

He may not have realised that the fish supper would have been detected later at an autopsy, by which time it would be too late to own up to it.

If nobody mentioned it to him later I bet he breathed a sigh of relief.

I am surprised there is no information regarding where she may have bought or otherwise obtained the food from. It would have been easy to check all local purveyors. McCarthy's shop would be the obvious place for her to obtain it.

[Shelley]

John McCarthy 1909

In 1909 Kitty Ronan a prostitute was found dead with her throat cut, she lived at 20 Miller's Court, above 13 Miller's Court ( where Mary Kelly lived only 21 yrs prior), Kitty's murderer was never found. As in 1888 the landlord of Miller's Court was still John Mc Carthy.

I am now wondering if ' Diddles ' was a psychic?

[Nemo]

Hi Shelley

Kitty Ronans room was almost certainly across the other side of the pump from Kelly's room - in the court proper.

[Sam Flynn]

I am surprised there is no information regarding where she may have bought or otherwise obtained the food from. McCarthy's shop would be the obvious place for her to obtain it.

Indeed, although (sticking to the theme of the thread, rather than launching into further discussion on Kitty Ronan!) McCarthy's was not the only chandler's shop nearby. We know of at least one other, on Thrawl Street, which was open until at least two in the morning. Elizabeth Mahoney tells us as much in the context of the Tabram murder, when she went to said Thrawl Street chandler to buy her husband a fish supper.

[caz]

Hi All,

I'd have thought Mary would have avoided buying her last supper or anything else from the landlord, if she owed him rent and was supposed to be pleading poverty at the time.

Love,

Caz
X

[Shelley]

Hi Shelley

Kitty Ronans room was almost certainly across the other side of the pump from Kelly's room - in the court proper.

No 20 Miller's Court on the plan say's above 13 Miller's court, No 26 is next to No 20, it was no's 2 & 3 that was accross from 13 Miller's Court and no's 2 & 3 were in front given another section of building near enough behind 2 & 3 Miller's Court was Mc Carthy's shop.

[Celesta]

Hi All,

I'd have thought Mary would have avoided buying her last supper or anything else from the landlord, if she owed him rent and was supposed to be pleading poverty at the time.

Love,

Caz
X

I agree, Caz. I know I would have avoided him, esp. if I had any money.

As for Jacobs, I haven't seen anything in the accounts of that night that anyone thought it odd that he was heading to McCarthy's for food.

[Jon Guy]

Hello

There was also Shuttleworth`s eating house in Wentworth St, where Frances Coles spent fifteen minutes eating three halfpenceworth of mutton and some bread,leaving at 1.45 am. This was a couple of years later than the Kelly murder.