Let there be light!

[Michael W Richards]

How do you know this? The murderer was never identified.

Had Pierre said the killer "liked" the less than 1 square mile that all the 5 Canonicals were killed within, it would be undeniable that it was a preferred zone regardless of who he was.

[Pierre]

Well now you seem to have expanded/changed your argument, i.e. with your last sentence. I must say, Pierre, I'm starting to find your posts somewhat confusing today.

No, I am just specifying the concept "liked". It is not changed. It is defined and thereby it also gives an explanation as to why he liked Whitechapel.

Regards, Pierre

[David Orsam]

If the murders took place before the closing of the streets the victims could be discovered when the show started. The correlation between those events would then be very obvious.

And if the police would understand the letter, they would understand the correlation.

I really don't know your level of English speaking ability Pierre, but "closing time" means the time of closing of public houses.

[David Orsam]

Dead people don´t sing, no. Dr Bond knew nothing about the singing. This is how the sources are produced. Try some external source criticism, David! Bye for now.

Just to add some "external source criticism" for Pierre.

Statement of Elizabeth Prater:

"I went to bed at half past one - I did not hear any singing. I should have heard any one singing in the deceaseds room at 1 oclock, there was no one singing."

Unilaterally altering Dr Bond's conclusion on the basis that MJK was singing in her room in the early hours was, therefore, not something you were entitled to do.

[MrBarnett]

But everybody knows this. The murderer killed four women in Whitechapel and one in the City. So it is easy to see that he liked Whitechapel. As a place for killing women.

Regards, Pierre

Hi Pierre,

I'm curious - in what sense do you consider Berner Street to have been in Whitechapel?

Gary

[Elamarna]

Pierre

I have been thinking about your hypotheses overnight and I have some clarifications to ask you, to allow me to understand it.

"Dr Bond states that the TOD should be set to 02.00, The time frame for rigor mortis is 6-12 hours after the murder. The last point in time when the murder could have been committed is therefore 08.00. TOD after 08.00 is not possible. Maxwells statment is therefore wrong."


When Bond says:

"the period varies from 6 to 12 hours before rigidity sets in."

Are you interpreting this as the period before there is any sign of Rigor Mortis?



With regards to your last possible TOD, set at 8am

What is the source for this ?

Bond says 1 or 2am for TOD.
If he is correct how can there be a possible later time?


Please explain how you get 8am? I am confused on this issue Pierre.


One other question to help me understand please,

The "Possible light time period 1"


The source for this is 2 witnesses hearing a scream?

regards

Steve

[Elamarna]

[QUOTE=Pierre;375303]

Let me assure you that the methods for measuring rigor mortis have changed since 1888.

Pierre

could I respectfully ask of you how the methods have changed?

What are the methods used now in 2016?
What methods were used in 1888?

and sources for these changes please?

steve

[Pierre]

Just to add some "external source criticism" for Pierre.

Statement of Elizabeth Prater:

"I went to bed at half past one - I did not hear any singing. I should have heard any one singing in the deceaseds room at 1 oclock, there was no one singing."

Unilaterally altering Dr Bond's conclusion on the basis that MJK was singing in her room in the early hours was, therefore, not something you were entitled to do.

Just to add some "external source criticism" for David.

Statement of Mary Ann Cox:

"She was still singing, I returned about one oclock she was singing then."

So about one o´clock is with high probability the time when she stopped singing. But since I did not ask about the singing but about light and darkness, there are no "no singing time period" / "singing time period."

Dr Bond´s conclusion is not altered. He was right when he said that "one OR two o´clock in the morning would be the probable time of the murder".

Accusing me of altering his statment was, therefore, not something you were entitled to do.

[David Orsam]

Dr Bond´s conclusion is not altered. He was right when he said that "one OR two o´clock in the morning would be the probable time of the murder".[/B]

Accusing me of altering his statment was, therefore, not something you were entitled to do.

Well if, as you admit, Dr Bond said that the time of the murder was one OR two o'clock then you definitely altered his conclusion in your timeline by claiming that he had said that the murder had been carried out at two o'clock. He didn't say this. You changed his conclusion for your own purposes. I was, therefore, perfectly entitled to accuse you of altering Dr Bond's conclusion because that's precisely what you did.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

you're missing:

4am - time the lamp post in Miller's court shuts off.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Elamarna;375369]

Pierre

could I respectfully ask of you how the methods have changed?

What are the methods used now in 2016?
What methods were used in 1888?

and sources for these changes please?

steve

Hi Steve,

This will help you:

Nokes, Leonard Derek Martin, Henssge, C., Knight, B. H., Madea, B. and Krompecher, T. 2002. The estimation of the time since death in the early postmortem period (2nd Edition). London: Hodder Arnold.

"Abstract

This internationally recognized source book is now referred to in court cases around the world. It deals with all aspects of scientific estimation of time since death, emphasising the practical application to the work of the forensic pathologist. The new edition includes completely rewritten chapters on lividity and thanatochemistry, changes in infants and children after death and gastric contents. Clinical cases have been added to illustrate the points made. The latest research has been taken into account on key issues such as rigor mortis."

ISBN:
9780340719602

URI:

http://orca.cf.ac.uk/id/eprint/2118

Kind regards, Pierre

[IchabodCrane]

Possible light time period 1:

03.30-04.00 Lewis and Prater hearing the scream ”Oh, Murder!” (Prater stating she heard it two or three times on 9 November, 1 time on 12 November)

Dark time period 2:

05.00-05.45 Prater going to The Ten Bells (not stating a word about light or darkness)

Hi Pierre,

what happened to 4-5 am? Dark or light period?
I think this is quite a crucial time window when mutilations are concerned. Did you leave it out of the analysis on purpose?

I had also highlighted in a previous thread (entitled 'Elizabeth Prater - Key Witness') the curious fact that the coroner did not ask Prater whether or not she had seen any light emit from the boards of Mary Kelly's room at 5am.
The failure to put this question on record is still incomprehensible to me.

Best regards
IchabodCrane

[David Orsam]

03.30-04.00 Lewis and Prater hearing the scream ”Oh, Murder!” (Prater stating she heard it two or three times on 9 November, 1 time on 12 November)

You're quite happy with Prater contradicting her own evidence at the inquest then Pierre?

[David Orsam]

I really don't know your level of English speaking ability Pierre, but "closing time" means the time of closing of public houses.

Can we take it from the absence of any response to this post, Pierre, that you accept it as correct?

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Elamarna;375362]Pierre

I have been thinking about your hypotheses overnight and I have some clarifications to ask you, to allow me to understand it.

"Dr Bond states that the TOD should be set to 02.00, The time frame for rigor mortis is 6-12 hours after the murder. The last point in time when the murder could have been committed is therefore 08.00. TOD after 08.00 is not possible. Maxwells statment is therefore wrong."


When Bond says:

"the period varies from 6 to 12 hours before rigidity sets in."

Are you interpreting this as the period before there is any sign of Rigor Mortis?

Hi Steve,

What do you mean by "the period before"?

With regards to your last possible TOD, set at 8am

What is the source for this ?

The source with Bond giving the range of 6-12 hours. So 6 hours would be 8 o´clock in the morning since Bond was at the murder site at 2 o´clock.

Bond says 1 or 2am for TOD.
If he is correct how can there be a possible later time?

It is only a possible time if you consider his statement about 6-12 hours. It could have been possible, had Dr Bond not given the statement of 1 or 2.

But I had to test it. I have to consider all possibilities.

Please explain how you get 8am? I am confused on this issue Pierre.

Since Dr Bond stated that "the period varies from 6 to 12 hours before rigidity sets in." TOD could have been at 8 in the morning, since it had set in at 2am. But he stated 1 or 2 o´clock in the night as probable TOD. And this correlates with the witnesses statements about when the room was dark and with the scream. 8 in the morning was the last possible TOD but did not correlate with any light time period or any witness statements. So we must exclude that possible TOD and follow the sources where they takes us: To the TOD given by Dr Bond and the possible times given by the witnesses.

One other question to help me understand please,

The "Possible light time period 1"

The source for this is 2 witnesses hearing a scream?

No. The sources are the statements about the room being dark at certain points in time. It is also corroborated by the statement from Cox about the singing.


Regards, Pierre