Let there be light!

[David Orsam]

If the content of your book is anywhere near the content of your posts in this forum I have no intention of reading your book. However, was she a regular "face" in the bar in question.

Thank you for the unnecessary insult.

If you had read the book you might have learnt something which would have saved you making false assumptions about Mary Kelly's life.

Asking me if Dimmock was a regular at the bar in question is a daft question because there is no evidence that Kelly was a regular at Ringers.

However, the Eagle public house off Camden Road was one of the closest bars to where Dimmock lived but her regular haunt was the Rising Sun in the Euston Road, some considerable distance from her home in St Pauls Road. So that knocks on the head the idea that a woman who drank MUST have been a regular at the closest bar to where she lived.

Further, the police had considerable advantages in 1907 because they had a photograph of Dimmock while alive and her face was not mutilated after death. Yet, even though they knew Dimmock had an assignment to meet a man in the Eagle on the night of her death, they still could not establish she had been in there. The female barkeeper didn't recognise her photograph.

No-one else came forward to say they had seen Dimmock in there, despite her living so close to the bar. It was only after they had arrested Robert Wood that one of Wood's friends came forward to say that by pure chance he had met him and Dimmock in there and the barkeeper then recognised Wood in a line up and figured she did remember Dimmock being in there after all.

According to you, however, she MUST have been seen in the Eagle by so many people that evening because she lived locally and drank and "we Brits" blah blah blah and all that rubbish that you spouted but perhaps that only applies to Kelly for some reason and not Dimmock.

[Observer]

Wow, I've heard of people contradicting themselves but this takes the biscuit.

You said to me only a few posts ago:

"Are we to believe that the single scream as heard by Lewis and Prater was the result of a common assault?"

Now you tell me that absent Kelly's murder it couldn't possibly have been anything else!!!

Wow. That's all I can say. Wow.

What the hell are you talking about? Let me make this simple for you. If it was not Kelly who cried out "oh murder" then it was someone else, are you following? Understand? Lewis put that scream "at her door", Prater said somewhere in the Court. In other words very close by, a woman crying out "oh murder", "oh murder" David get that? Now then, I don't know about you but in my opinion I'd say that cry was issuing from a damsel in distress. Get it? Do you see what I'm saying?

[David Orsam]

What the hell are you talking about? Let me make this simple for you. If it was not Kelly who cried out "oh murder" then it was someone else, are you following? Understand? Lewis put that scream "at her door", Prater said somewhere in the Court. In other words very close by, a woman crying out "oh murder", "oh murder" David get that? Now then, I don't know about you but in my opinion I'd say that cry was issuing from a damsel in distress. Get it? Do you see what I'm saying?

Then why did you ask me the following question:

"Are we to believe that the single scream as heard by Lewis and Prater was the result of a common assault?"

Are we to believe it or not?

[Observer]

See above is not an answer to my question, which was:

Do you accept that a cry of murder was a common occurrence in the neighbourhood at night?

Do you accept that a cry of "oh murder" indicates that someone is being assaulted

[Observer]

Then why did you ask me the following question:

"Are we to believe that the single scream as heard by Lewis and Prater was the result of a common assault?"

Are we to believe it or not?

Again, I have only ever indicated that if it was not Kelly who produced the scream, then it was someone else in distress, someone being assaulted, so cut the crap

[David Orsam]

Do you accept that a cry of "oh murder" indicates that someone is being assaulted

No.

Now could you please answer my question.

[David Orsam]

Again, I have only ever indicated that if it was not Kelly who produced the scream, then it was someone else in distress, someone being assaulted, so cut the crap

So when you asked me:

"Are we to believe that the single scream as heard by Lewis and Prater was the result of a common assault?"

The answer is: yes we are to believe it.

Have I got that right?

[Observer]

Tell me Observer, what do you make of the following in the Evening Post of 9 November 1888?

"One man has informed our representative that he was in the court at eight o’clock this morning when he saw Kelly go out for the purpose of fetching some milk. Two women aver that they saw her in a public-house, drinking with a man. This was between ten and half-past, but the persons residing in the public house state that they have no recollection of her, and the point is rendered the more difficult through Kelly not being generally known."

Tell me David what do you make of the following?

An Echo reporter visited a local doss-house to ask if anyone knew the victim...two local dossers are quoted...

When asked, "Did anyone know her?"

- "Did anyone not know her? - a remark which hugely tickled his companions. Poor Mary Jane Kelly was a figure, it appears, in street brawls, sudden and quick in quarrel, and - for a woman - handy with her fists.

- An elderly man who wore a coat and waistcoat, but no shirt beneath, averred in pessimistic tones it was better for Mary Jane Kelly to have been done to death. "Wot was her life?" he muttered, spreading out his thin and not too clean hands to the fire. "Starvation three days a week, and then, when she got money, drink for the other three days. I knowed her. I guv her the money for her doss three weeks ago cos she hadn't none. Yes, matey, and that at two in the mornin'," he said, turning to our reporter whose intent bearing may possibly have suggested incredulity. "Mary Jane was a good soul." This testimony was freely offered. "She would spend her money lavishly when she had any, and when she hadn't any, why -"

These are the only snippets I could locate at the moment, so yes, she was well known, and people are said to have liked her.
In that sense, a local celebrity, someone remembered by many.

[Observer]

So when you asked me:

"Are we to believe that the single scream as heard by Lewis and Prater was the result of a common assault?"

The answer is: yes we are to believe it.

Have I got that right?

By jove he's got it

[Observer]

No.

Now could you please answer my question.

This is becoming increasingly tedious. Go on which question?

[David Orsam]

This is becoming increasingly tedious. Go on which question?

If it's becoming tedious it's because you aren't answering my questions and I have to keep posting to force you to answer them.

The question I had in mind was "Are we to believe that the single scream as heard by Lewis and Prater was the result of a common assault?" and in the end I had to answer it myself for you to which you have commented "By jove he's got it". I will respond to that separately.

But so that we can understand each other. Could you answer the question which I asked some time ago but you haven't answered as follows:

Do you accept that the evidence of Prater was that a cry of "oh murder" was a common occurrence in the neighbourhood at night?

[David Orsam]

By jove he's got it

Okay, so if you think we are to believe that the "single scream" heard by Lewis and Prater was the result of a common assault then that would explain why Maxwell testified that she saw Kelly alive at about 8:00am wouldn't it?

[David Orsam]

I guv her the money for her doss three weeks ago cos she hadn't none.

This will be Groundhog Day for those people who have been paying attention and actually following the debate in this thread.

But my response to that article extract you have posted is this:

Why did Mary Kelly require doss money?

[Observer]

I love the "lets say 3" as if that is a scientific way of going about this.

But if it was 3 hours and she was murdered at 10:00am then her last meal would have been at 7:00am.

Did you like that? Goodo. You know the way you talk out of your backside is very endearing.

Now then, here's a factual little snippet, as I said, the stomach empties of food after about six hours, that's for an average sized meal, and I think it's fair to say that the meal of fish and potatoes Kelly ate. The food in her stomach was recognisable, so it's not unreasonable to suggest that she ate 3 hours prior to her death certainly less than 6 hours.

So you believe that Kelly obtained and ate a meal of fish and chips at 7:00 a.m. in the morning?

[David Orsam]

Did you like that? Goodo. You know the way you talk out of your backside is very endearing.

I don't understand. What's the problem with my answer?