Let there be light!

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
Inquest.
Mrs Prater in describing the cry she heard''Like awakening from a nightmare''
She Cried ''Oh Murder''
Lottie told Kit Watkins 1891, ''Kelly told me she had a nightmare that she was being murdered''
If this was a recurrence of that dream in the early hours of the 9th, it would explain the cry, it would explain the wording ''Oh Murder'', and explain why she was seen the following morning.
Regards Richard.

[Pierre]

I don't believe anything. For all I know she was already dead for some hours at 7:00am.

But, if Maxwell's evidence was true, is it possible that she could have eaten fish and chips at 7:00am? Yes, I can't see why not.

I can see why not. The fish and chips should have been in the road. It wasn´t.

[Robert St Devil]

This is if we are applying the modern use of the term "oh murder". We don,t know what context it was being used in when it was overheard. "Murder" seems like generally applied word in those days. Yes, there is the coincidence of the scream and her murder. But we also are left believing she had a sexual encounter that night. It could have been an orgasmic outcry. Mary was being loud and was drunk that nite.

[Pierre]

Absolutely it was a rough neighbourhood. And now answer my question. Do you accept that a female crying out "oh murder" at four o clock in the morning is in danger of being assaulted?

What do I see there? "Is"? Not "could have been", "was perhaps", but "is".

What is the evidence for that opinion, David?

[Phil Carter]

Come off it

1. There is NO officially recorded time of death ( a lawful requirement infact) so having been found to have residue of said foodstuffs in her stomach at the post mortem ..which began in the afternoon. .there is every chance she ate at 7am.

2. Even if you ignore Mrs Maxwell..there is a fine possibility she was alive at that time. It cannot be proven she was not alive at 7am.

3. If we include Mrs Maxwell's testimony..it enhances the possibility of the above.


Phil

[David Orsam]

If the cry had come from some other assault then Sarah Lewis and Prater would have heard more, several screams, a male voice, the battering of a door should the victim require assistance.

Erm, but I posted in #682:

"So when you asked me:

"Are we to believe that the single scream as heard by Lewis and Prater was the result of a common assault?"

The answer is: yes we are to believe it.

Have I got that right?"

Your answer was: "By jove he's got it".

Now you are saying the complete opposite, namely that we cannot believe that the single scream as heard by Lewis and Prater was the result of a common assault.

So what is it?

Can we believe it or can't we?

[Observer]

Indeed..She certainly could have!

Phil

Come off it

[Observer]

Any woman out at four o'clock in the morning in that neighbourhood was in danger of being assaulted.

But I would have thought a woman being assaulted would most likely scream for help.

But hey, if you think that the cry of "oh murder" at that time in the morning was a woman being assaulted then fine, perhaps that's what it was.

Now, what's your point?

Exactly, she would have screamed for help. Good now we're getting somewhere. I refer you to post #647. the following is an extract from that post

"Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
And as I have already asked, does someone faced with a knife cry out "oh murder!" in a faint voice rather than screaming for help? It doesn't seem natural to me nor likely."

My reply

Incredible. Absolutely incredible. You acknowledge that Kelly should have made more noise upon being faced with a knife, and yet you would have us believe that an assault (which was serious enough for the victim to have cried oh murder) took place "at the front door" of Sarah Lewis and the only utterance was as single cry of "oh murder". Come off it David"

What I'm saying is the cry could only have come from Kelly. If the cry had come from some other assault then Sarah Lewis and Prater would have heard more, several screams, a male voice, the battering of a door should the victim require assistance.

I've had it happen to me, and she wasn't battering the door down because she had heard of my renown as a great lover, rather, her boyfriend was trying to kick the living daylights out of her, the noise was tremendous out in the street.

A single scream, "oh murder" and Kelly was no more.


A single cry of "oh murder" is not consistent with such an assault,

[David Orsam]

Indeed..She certainly could have!

Thank you Phil.

There we are. I'll modify my previous answer from fish and chips to fish and potatoes.

[Robert St Devil]

Would there have been street vendors selling fish and potatoes for the Lord Mayor,s Day parade? The way we find vendors setup in makeshift tents for special holidays, like what we will expect to see tomorrow along our parades.

[Phil Carter]

Could she have eaten fish and potatoes at 7:00am Phil?

Indeed..She certainly could have!

Phil

[David Orsam]

Hello David...

My dear fellow..MJK eating fish and chips st 7am is highly unlikely. .for various reasons. .

The nearest two places selling fish and chips were in Hoxton and in Shoreditch..and those places only opened in 1896... even though the first fish and chip place in London was in 1860.
Secondly..the price . (1896) was 9d. MJK didn't have 9d so far as we know..not even Hutch could help her towards that cost.
Thirdly..fish and potato in the stomach doesn't mean fish and chips. It was far more the norm to eat raw potato too. As for the fish... there is no indication that said fish in stomach was coveted in or was mixed up with any batter. Crispy batter..being what it is..would take longer time to break down in the stomach.

That said..time wise..there is no reason why she could not have eaten at 7am..but fish and chips? Err..no. sorry.

Could she have eaten fish and potatoes at 7:00am Phil?

[Phil Carter]

....
But, if Maxwell's evidence was true, is it possible that she could have eaten fish and chips at 7:00am? Yes, I can't see why not.

Hello David...

My dear fellow..MJK eating fish and chips st 7am is highly unlikely. .for various reasons. .

The nearest two places selling fish and chips were in Hoxton and in Shoreditch..and those places only opened in 1896... even though the first fish and chip place in London was in 1860.
Secondly..the price . (1896) was 9d. MJK didn't have 9d so far as we know..not even Hutch could help her towards that cost.
Thirdly..fish and potato in the stomach doesn't mean fish and chips. It was far more the norm to eat raw potato too. As for the fish... there is no indication that said fish in stomach was coveted in or was mixed up with any batter. Crispy batter..being what it is..would take longer time to break down in the stomach.

That said..time wise..there is no reason why she could not have eaten at 7am..but fish and chips? Err..no. sorry.



Phil

[David Orsam]

Absolutely it was a rough neighbourhood. And now answer my question. Do you accept that a female crying out "oh murder" at four o clock in the morning is in danger of being assaulted?

Any woman out at four o'clock in the morning in that neighbourhood was in danger of being assaulted.

But I would have thought a woman being assaulted would most likely scream for help.

But hey, if you think that the cry of "oh murder" at that time in the morning was a woman being assaulted then fine, perhaps that's what it was.

Now, what's your point?

[Observer]

If it's becoming tedious it's because you aren't answering my questions and I have to keep posting to force you to answer them.

The question I had in mind was "Are we to believe that the single scream as heard by Lewis and Prater was the result of a common assault?" and in the end I had to answer it myself for you to which you have commented "By jove he's got it". I will respond to that separately.

But so that we can understand each other. Could you answer the question which I asked some time ago but you haven't answered as follows:

Do you accept that the evidence of Prater was that a cry of "oh murder" was a common occurrence in the neighbourhood at night?

Absolutely it was a rough neighbourhood. And now answer my question. Do you accept that a female crying out "oh murder" at four o clock in the morning is in danger of being assaulted?