Let there be light!

[Elamarna]

Rigor Mortis starts +/- 2 hours after death, earlier if it's warmer, starting with smaller muscles (face, neck). The whole duration process takes 8 to 12 hours and can last up to 18 hours.

Good evening Sir John,

most are of roughly the same view as you.

another supporting such is always welcome.

unfortunately the argue seems to have gone abstract again, ignoring the obvious facts.

many thanks

Steve

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Hi John,

What is the source for this?

Kind regards, Pierre

The complete history of Jack The Ripper, Philip Sugden, page 329, from the official inquest details, and not the Telegraph article from this site:

Elizabeth Prater, talking about the cry "Oh murder".

"(...) But at the inquest she reflected further:" I noticed the lodging house light was out, so it was after 4 probably." "

Other people questioned by reporters, but not summoned at the inquest, confirmed that the light was turned off at 4 every nights. I have no doubt this is the truth, but there is a slight possibility that things were different that night, but I can't see why.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Good evening Sir John,

most are of roughly the same view as you.

another supporting such is always welcome.

unfortunately the argue seems to have gone abstract again, ignoring the obvious facts.

many thanks

Steve

I've done research for actual post mortems/autopsy for a role I played on TV for 4 years, as a coroner.

[Elamarna]

I've done research for actual post mortems/autopsy for a role I played on TV for 4 years, as a coroner.

wonder if I saw you in that at all?

yes some actual experience of these things is always handy when debating medical science.
Fortunately on this thread we have at several with some related experience.

Nice point about the other light by the way.

steve

[Joshua Rogan]

you're missing:

4am - time the lamp post in Miller's court shuts off.

Was it the lamp in Miller's Court (opposite Mary's door) that Prater said was turned off at 4am, or the one across Dorset Street from the court entrance, outside the lodging house at no 14 (which Hutchinson may or may not have leant against)?

[Joshua Rogan]

Rigor Mortis starts +/- 2 hours after death...

Surely even a Victorian doctor wouldn't think Rigor Mortis could set in at -2 hours after death? ;-)

Ps were you Quincey??

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Unless you watch French Canadian television, you probably don't know me.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Was it the lamp in Miller's Court (opposite Mary's door) that Prater said was turned off at 4am, or the one across Dorset Street from the court entrance, outside the lodging house at no 14 (which Hutchinson may or may not have leant against)?

that's the Miller's Court lamp.

[John G]

As I've noted before, there are serious problems with trying to estimate time of death via rigor mortis. Thus, as I've noted before, studies in this area are rare, one of the most important being from the nineteenth century by Niderkorn (1872), which found that it was fully established in 76 out of 113 corpses after 4-7 hours, and in two others within 2 hours. Of course, what is required is further longitudinal studies, and we are not, of course, entitled to assume that the results of the Nikerdorn study would necessarily be replicated in such studies.

Furthermore, there is a wide range of individual variability. This is because a number of factors effect both the onset and completion of rigor mortis, such as the amount of glycogen in the muscles at the time of death, and ambient temperatures-cold temperatures will slow it down, whereas hot temperatures will speed it up.

In respect of the case under consideration, these are factors we simply cannot know. For instance in respect of ambient temperature, it was a cold night, but in contrast there is the issue of the fire in the grate.

[IchabodCrane]

This is the letter he sent to the Yarmouth Police:


"14, Dorset Street, Spitalfields, London

Look out for him on Thursday night at either of the Piers, where he intends to do for two Norwich women, before closing time. So distinguish yourselves better than the London coppers. Jack the Ripper."


So he was sitting at one of the pubs (they had the names of the piers: Britannia and Wellington), intending to kill two women before the closing time of the streets.

The police closed the streets for Lord Mayor´s Show. He gave the police a chance to come and wait just opposite the entrance of Miller´s Court, where he would kill two women. Prater barricaded her door with two tables so she survived.
[/B]

Hi Pierre,
having carefully placed your teasers here, I am sure you would love to explain us the Norwich connection of Ms. Prater and Ms. Kelly,
Thanks in advance
IchabodCrane

[wigngown]

Me too!

[Joshua Rogan]

The letter was discussed in this thread;

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6812

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre,
having carefully placed your teasers here, I am sure you would love to explain us the Norwich connection of Ms. Prater and Ms. Kelly,
Thanks in advance
IchabodCrane

Sure.

Two Norwich women means two women who are drinking to much, who take more than their fair share.

"What is still meant by a Norwicher ? He is a man who,
taking first pull at a tankard, does not draw breath
till he has swallowed three-fourths, and then reluct-
antly yields the rest to his partner. But that partner
will take first turn at the second tankard, and show
himself a Norwicher by keeping his nose in it till
three-quarters of the delicious draught has passed
his lips, and in luxurious slowness has flowed over his
grateful palate. Thirsty souls !"

MEMORIES OF OUR GREAT TOWNS [1860— 1877]
http://archive.org/stream/memoriesof...0dora_djvu.txt

"One who drinks too much from a shared jug, glass, etc., i.e. an unfair drinker: ca 1860– 1900"

Source: The Routledge Dictionary of Historical Slang, sixth ed. 2006.

Regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

Good evening Sir John,

most are of roughly the same view as you.

another supporting such is always welcome.

unfortunately the argue seems to have gone abstract again, ignoring the obvious facts.

many thanks

Steve

And here it is again. The never changing "view". Always based on "obvious facts".

God luck with this tautological idea!

Kind regards, Pierre

[GUT]

Sure.

Two Norwich women means two women who are drinking to much, who take more than their fair share.

"What is still meant by a Norwicher ? He is a man who,
taking first pull at a tankard, does not draw breath
till he has swallowed three-fourths, and then reluct-
antly yields the rest to his partner. But that partner
will take first turn at the second tankard, and show
himself a Norwicher by keeping his nose in it till
three-quarters of the delicious draught has passed
his lips, and in luxurious slowness has flowed over his
grateful palate. Thirsty souls !"

MEMORIES OF OUR GREAT TOWNS [1860— 1877]
http://archive.org/stream/memoriesof...0dora_djvu.txt

"One who drinks too much from a shared jug, glass, etc., i.e. an unfair drinker: ca 1860– 1900"

Source: The Routledge Dictionary of Historical Slang, sixth ed. 2006.

Regards, Pierre

So they were all killed because they drank more than their share.

All is clear now