Mary Kelly's men

[Abby Normal]

Out of all the victims, it seems most likely that Mary Kelly knew her killer.

For this reason, I believe the key to the ripper case is Mary Kelly.

Mary Kelly was the only victim killed in her room. I would also posit that another reason that mary Kelly was killed by someone she knew because there are several factors that lead me to believe she would not prostitute herself to a complete stranger:

1.She has a history of serious relationships-seemingly one after another.
2.She had recently broken up with one.
3.She was scared and cautious about the ripper.
4.As young and attractive woman, she knew a lot of men. Men who would be waiting for her to be single again, and or jump at the chance to use her services. She didn't need to go out and pick up strangers-she had a clientel pool.
5.She was not as desperate financially or abodewise as the typical unfortunate.


These are the men she knew at the time: and most of them have the motive and opportunity.

Barnett-Motive-anger and jealousy.
Flemming-used to ill use her. anger and jealousy. wound up in an institution.
McCarthy- no clear motive (but I could venture a guess or two) but opportunity
Bowyer-first to find body
Hutch-anger at being blown off that night. stalking behavior.
Blotchy-No clear motive, but obvious opportunity.

Of course, a serial killer needs no classical motive and the motives above would really just be a bonus, but they would need opportunity. An opportunity that IMHO comes from knowledge that Mary Kelly was now single.

I think there is a slightly better than 50/50 chance that Mary Kelly's murderer and therefore the ripper comes from this list of men.

Who do you think would be the most likely of the men Mary Kelly knew to be her killer and why?

[Errata]

Out of all the victims, it seems most likely that Mary Kelly knew her killer.

For this reason, I believe the key to the ripper case is Mary Kelly.

Mary Kelly was the only victim killed in her room. I would also posit that another reason that mary Kelly was killed by someone she knew because there are several factors that lead me to believe she would not prostitute herself to a complete stranger:

1.She has a history of serious relationships-seemingly one after another.
2.She had recently broken up with one.
3.She was scared and cautious about the ripper.
4.As young and attractive woman, she knew a lot of men. Men who would be waiting for her to be single again, and or jump at the chance to use her services. She didn't need to go out and pick up strangers-she had a clientel pool.
5.She was not as desperate financially or abodewise as the typical unfortunate.


These are the men she knew at the time: and most of them have the motive and opportunity.

Barnett-Motive-anger and jealousy.
Flemming-used to ill use her. anger and jealousy. wound up in an institution.
McCarthy- no clear motive (but I could venture a guess or two) but opportunity
Bowyer-first to find body
Hutch-anger at being blown off that night. stalking behavior.
Blotchy-No clear motive, but obvious opportunity.

Of course, a serial killer needs no classical motive and the motives above would really just be a bonus, but they would need opportunity. An opportunity that IMHO comes from knowledge that Mary Kelly was now single.

I think there is a slightly better than 50/50 chance that Mary Kelly's murderer and therefore the ripper comes from this list of men.

Who do you think would be the most likely of the men Mary Kelly knew to be her killer and why?

Probably a Hutch-like person. A stalker, or a person who imagined a relationship that was not there. Maybe she was even in a protected category of woman in the killers mind, but then was not. It's hard not to see at least a little revenge in that murder.

[c.d.]

Hello Abby,

I am afraid that I am going to have to disagree with most of your post.

"Mary Kelly was the only victim killed in her room."

Not surprising since she was the only victim that had her own room.

"She didn't need to go out and pick up strangers-she had a clientel pool."

But isn't that exactly what prostitutes do? Pickup strangers? You seem to have turned her into a $500 an hour call girl. Even if she did have a few regulars I doubt that that would have been enough for her to live on. If those regulars were poor working men of Whitechapel could they regularly afford her services? I doubt it.

"She was scared and cautious about the ripper."

I would have to believe that that applied to any woman conducting business on the street.

"She was not as desperate financially or abodewise as the typical unfortunate."

Have you seen the pictures of Miller's Court? She was also behind on her rent. If she was better off it was only relatively speaking.

"These are the men she knew at the time: and most of them have the motive and opportunity."

Maybe so but isn't it reasonable to assume that all of the other victims had men they knew at the time and who also had motive and opportunity? Why single out Mary in this respect?

I do agree that I think Mary knew her killer but that could also mean that he was someone she had met earlier that week or even that day.

c.d.

[John G]

Out of all the victims, it seems most likely that Mary Kelly knew her killer.

For this reason, I believe the key to the ripper case is Mary Kelly.

Mary Kelly was the only victim killed in her room. I would also posit that another reason that mary Kelly was killed by someone she knew because there are several factors that lead me to believe she would not prostitute herself to a complete stranger:

1.She has a history of serious relationships-seemingly one after another.
2.She had recently broken up with one.
3.She was scared and cautious about the ripper.
4.As young and attractive woman, she knew a lot of men. Men who would be waiting for her to be single again, and or jump at the chance to use her services. She didn't need to go out and pick up strangers-she had a clientel pool.
5.She was not as desperate financially or abodewise as the typical unfortunate.


These are the men she knew at the time: and most of them have the motive and opportunity.

Barnett-Motive-anger and jealousy.
Flemming-used to ill use her. anger and jealousy. wound up in an institution.
McCarthy- no clear motive (but I could venture a guess or two) but opportunity
Bowyer-first to find body
Hutch-anger at being blown off that night. stalking behavior.
Blotchy-No clear motive, but obvious opportunity.

Of course, a serial killer needs no classical motive and the motives above would really just be a bonus, but they would need opportunity. An opportunity that IMHO comes from knowledge that Mary Kelly was now single.

I think there is a slightly better than 50/50 chance that Mary Kelly's murderer and therefore the ripper comes from this list of men.

Who do you think would be the most likely of the men Mary Kelly knew to be her killer and why?

Hi Abby,

Of those candidates possibly Flemming or Hutchinson, although I must confess I don't know a great deal about Flemming. However, I wouldn't rule out John McCarthy, largely on the basis of the 1901 murder of Mary Ann Austin, and Tom Westcott's excellent analysis of that case: Bank Holiday Murders (2014)

Thus, Austin was seriously assaulted in her lodgings-she subsequently died of her injuries- at 35 Dorset Street (she had previously resided at 37 Dorset Street, but a week before she was killed she was ejected by John McCarthy's wife, Elizabeth McCarthy). Before she died she was able to confirm that she'd been attacked in her bed (as Kelly may have been), apparently by a Jewish man. Her injuries included "a penetrating wound of the vaginal (frontal) passage extending into the abdominal cavity." And Dr Ridge informed Inspector Dival, "Considerable force must have been used to inflict the wounds in the rectum and the womb." This was therefore clearly a rare murder, with the abdominal wound clearly reminiscent of the earlier Whitechapel murders.

Moreover, there was clearly a major cover up, which involved the overseer, Daniel Sullivan, whose mother was married to William Crossingham: Sullivan lied about the place where the murder took place- he even had the victim moved to a different cubicle on a different floor-and other witnesses supported him.

However, he was caught out repeatedly lying at the inquest, leading coroner Baxter to observe, "Well, you are about the stupidest witness and most innocent witness I have ever met."

So the question is: who, apart from himself, would Sullivan and the other witnesses have been prepared to cover up for? As Inspector Divall remarked, "her assailant is some well known character, otherwise the Deputy and the lodgers (the house being full) would not be so anxious to shield him, if he had been a stranger which they are evidently doing."

Interestingly, a witness subsequently came forward and recounted a conversation he'd overheard to a Sergeant Gill:

"I beg to report having seen 'James Schulty'...who states that about 3 pm, 28th ult, he was in the Princess Alicem PH Commercial Street when he overheard a conversation between 3 men, one said, I tell you McCarthy was with her before her husband, another said what do you mean the Dorset St murder, he said yes I know McCarthy was with her."

Could McCarthy, therefore, have been having an affair with Austin? Could that be the reason why she was ejected by Elizabeth McCarthy?

[Michael W Richards]

Out of all the victims, it seems most likely that Mary Kelly knew her killer.
For this reason, I believe the key to the ripper case is Mary Kelly.

Mary Kelly was the only victim killed in her room. I would also posit that another reason that mary Kelly was killed by someone she knew because there are several factors that lead me to believe she would not prostitute herself to a complete stranger:

1.She has a history of serious relationships-seemingly one after another.
2.She had recently broken up with one.
3.She was scared and cautious about the ripper.
4.As young and attractive woman, she knew a lot of men. Men who would be waiting for her to be single again, and or jump at the chance to use her services. She didn't need to go out and pick up strangers-she had a clientel pool.
5.She was not as desperate financially or abodewise as the typical unfortunate.


These are the men she knew at the time: and most of them have the motive and opportunity.

Barnett-Motive-anger and jealousy.
Flemming-used to ill use her. anger and jealousy. wound up in an institution.
McCarthy- no clear motive (but I could venture a guess or two) but opportunity
Bowyer-first to find body
Hutch-anger at being blown off that night. stalking behavior.
Blotchy-No clear motive, but obvious opportunity.

Of course, a serial killer needs no classical motive and the motives above would really just be a bonus, but they would need opportunity. An opportunity that IMHO comes from knowledge that Mary Kelly was now single.

I think there is a slightly better than 50/50 chance that Mary Kelly's murderer and therefore the ripper comes from this list of men.

Who do you think would be the most likely of the men Mary Kelly knew to be her killer and why?

Based on the comment I highlighted above, which I agree with, it would seem to indicate that she was not like the previous victims in that there seems to be some personal connection between killer and victim. There is no such evidence for the prior Canonicals, other than perhaps Kates hand on the chest of sailor man. Marys murder merely resembles those that went before, she does not match with the conventions within the physical and circumstantial evidence of those priors.

we have Mary seeing 2 Joes simultaeneously, we know of Barnett, but the second Joe is often assuemd to have been Fleming. The issue with that is that we have differing situations with Fleming and this other Joe, Fleming was nice to her and demonstrated an affection that might have led to marriage, this other Joe she was seeing at the time of her death often "treated her ill". This factor suggests that she was seeing someone who presented a danger at times to her.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Abby Normal;371855]Out of all the victims, it seems most likely that Mary Kelly knew her killer.

For this reason, I believe the key to the ripper case is Mary Kelly.

Mary Kelly was the only victim killed in her room. I would also posit that another reason that mary Kelly was killed by someone she knew because there are several factors that lead me to believe she would not prostitute herself to a complete stranger:

1.She has a history of serious relationships-seemingly one after another.

No, she most certainly had not. She might have been married once, but no one knows. How do you know that Barnetts testimony is reliable? He also stated that Kelly had been working as a prostitute for a considerable time. There is absolutely nothing in the primary sources that indicates a "history of serious relationships" and definitely not "one after another".

2.She had recently broken up with one.

And there is nothing to indicate that it was serious.

3.She was scared and cautious about the ripper.

What is the source for that idea? And if there is a good source for it - weren´t many prostitutes in Whitechapel scared? And did they all know the killer?

4.As young and attractive woman, she knew a lot of men.

What do you know about her appearance? What are the sources for her "attractiveness"?

Men who would be waiting for her to be single again,

Waiting for a cheap prostitute in Spitalfields? Give me a break.

and or jump at the chance to use her services.

Spitalfields was full of cheap prostitutes like Kelly. What "chance" are you talking about? Kelly could not even manage to earn enough to pay for her lousy room.

She didn't need to go out and pick up strangers-she had a clientel pool.

How do you know that? What is the source for it?

5.She was not as desperate financially or abodewise as the typical unfortunate.

Oh dear. This is getting worse and worse. Kelly could not even pay her rent.

These are the men she knew at the time:

and most of them have the motive

Do you understand what you are talking about here? You are actually talking about a serial killer and not just any serial killer but a serial killer who has the motive to cut the victims into pieces. Did the persons on you list here have such a motive? And what are your sources?

and opportunity.

Barnett-Motive-anger and jealousy.

Was Barnett angry and jealous with Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes and Kelly? So angry that he became a serial murder and mutilator?

Flemming-used to ill use her. anger and jealousy. wound up in an institution.

Source? Reliability of source? Source criticized by whom? Problems?

McCarthy- no clear motive (but I could venture a guess or two) but opportunity

No, it must have been Prater I think. She had the opportunity. And she was probably angry at Kelly for taking all the clients.

Bowyer-first to find body

Be ware. Never find a body, or you will be accused of being the killer. Just walk away and say nothing.

Hutch-anger at being blown off that night. stalking behavior.

Blown off on the other nights as well? Stalking the other victims too?

Blotchy-No clear motive, but obvious opportunity.

The whole neighbourhood had the opportunity. Perhaps they did it.

Of course, a serial killer needs no classical motive and the motives above would really just be a bonus, but they would need opportunity. An opportunity that IMHO comes from knowledge that

Mary Kelly was now single.

That seems to be an established fact.

I think there is a slightly better than 50/50 chance that Mary Kelly's murderer and therefore the ripper comes from this list of men.

And so, from this list of men, you think you have one who also killed the others. But you can not explain them.

Who do you think would be the most likely of the men Mary Kelly knew to be her killer and why?

Of the ones you have on your list? McCarthy. Because Kelly had not paid her rent. He is the most likely killer on your list. But he is a very unlikely killer.

Regards, Pierre

[Pcdunn]

Why does Mary Kelly's murderer MUST have killed all of the others? We've just commented that her killer seemed to have a personal connection or relationship with her, based on how violently he mutilated her corpse.

I know the police at the time thought she was one of the White-chapel killer's victims, but some believed the same of Liz Stride, too. Why? What did they know that we don't?

[Abby Normal]

[QUOTE=Pierre;371870]

Out of all the victims, it seems most likely that Mary Kelly knew her killer.

For this reason, I believe the key to the ripper case is Mary Kelly.

Mary Kelly was the only victim killed in her room. I would also posit that another reason that mary Kelly was killed by someone she knew because there are several factors that lead me to believe she would not prostitute herself to a complete stranger:



No, she most certainly had not. She might have been married once, but no one knows. How do you know that Barnetts testimony is reliable? He also stated that Kelly had been working as a prostitute for a considerable time. There is absolutely nothing in the primary sources that indicates a "history of serious relationships" and definitely not "one after another".



And there is nothing to indicate that it was serious.
What is the source for that idea? And if there is a good source for it - weren´t many prostitutes in Whitechapel scared? And did they all know the killer?



What do you know about her appearance? What are the sources for her "attractiveness"?



Waiting for a cheap prostitute in Spitalfields? Give me a break.



Spitalfields was full of cheap prostitutes like Kelly. What "chance" are you talking about? Kelly could not even manage to earn enough to pay for her lousy room.



How do you know that? What is the source for it?



Oh dear. This is getting worse and worse. Kelly could not even pay her rent.

These are the men she knew at the time:



Do you understand what you are talking about here? You are actually talking about a serial killer and not just any serial killer but a serial killer who has the motive to cut the victims into pieces. Did the persons on you list here have such a motive? And what are your sources?

and opportunity.



Was Barnett angry and jealous with Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes and Kelly? So angry that he became a serial murder and mutilator?

Flemming-used to ill use her. anger and jealousy. wound up in an institution.

Source? Reliability of source? Source criticized by whom? Problems?



No, it must have been Prater I think. She had the opportunity. And she was probably angry at Kelly for taking all the clients.



Be ware. Never find a body, or you will be accused of being the killer. Just walk away and say nothing.



Blown off on the other nights as well? Stalking the other victims too?



The whole neighbourhood had the opportunity. Perhaps they did it.

Of course, a serial killer needs no classical motive and the motives above would really just be a bonus, but they would need opportunity. An opportunity that IMHO comes from knowledge that

That seems to be an established fact.



And so, from this list of men, you think you have one who also killed the others. But you can not explain them.



Of the ones you have on your list? McCarthy. Because Kelly had not paid her rent. He is the most likely killer on your list. But he is a very unlikely killer.

Regards, Pierre

Hi Pierre
I see you have finally learned how to use the quote function.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Of those candidates possibly Flemming or Hutchinson, although I must confess I don't know a great deal about Flemming. However, I wouldn't rule out John McCarthy, largely on the basis of the 1901 murder of Mary Ann Austin, and Tom Westcott's excellent analysis of that case: Bank Holiday Murders (2014)

Thus, Austin was seriously assaulted in her lodgings-she subsequently died of her injuries- at 35 Dorset Street (she had previously resided at 37 Dorset Street, but a week before she was killed she was ejected by John McCarthy's wife, Elizabeth McCarthy). Before she died she was able to confirm that she'd been attacked in her bed (as Kelly may have been), apparently by a Jewish man. Her injuries included "a penetrating wound of the vaginal (frontal) passage extending into the abdominal cavity." And Dr Ridge informed Inspector Dival, "Considerable force must have been used to inflict the wounds in the rectum and the womb." This was therefore clearly a rare murder, with the abdominal wound clearly reminiscent of the earlier Whitechapel murders.

Moreover, there was clearly a major cover up, which involved the overseer, Daniel Sullivan, whose mother was married to William Crossingham: Sullivan lied about the place where the murder took place- he even had the victim moved to a different cubicle on a different floor-and other witnesses supported him.

However, he was caught out repeatedly lying at the inquest, leading coroner Baxter to observe, "Well, you are about the stupidest witness and most innocent witness I have ever met."

So the question is: who, apart from himself, would Sullivan and the other witnesses have been prepared to cover up for? As Inspector Divall remarked, "her assailant is some well known character, otherwise the Deputy and the lodgers (the house being full) would not be so anxious to shield him, if he had been a stranger which they are evidently doing."

Interestingly, a witness subsequently came forward and recounted a conversation he'd overheard to a Sergeant Gill:

"I beg to report having seen 'James Schulty'...who states that about 3 pm, 28th ult, he was in the Princess Alicem PH Commercial Street when he overheard a conversation between 3 men, one said, I tell you McCarthy was with her before her husband, another said what do you mean the Dorset St murder, he said yes I know McCarthy was with her."

Could McCarthy, therefore, have been having an affair with Austin? Could that be the reason why she was ejected by Elizabeth McCarthy?

Thanks johnG

That's very interesting. Could be. I wouldn't be shocked if mcCarthy was having an affair with Mary Kelly either, or at least sex in Lew of rent money.

[c.d.]

"Based on the comment I highlighted above, which I agree with, it would seem to indicate that she was not like the previous victims in that there seems to be some personal connection between killer and victim. "

Hello Michael,

What do you base that on?

c.d.

[packers stem]

Thanks johnG

That's very interesting. Could be. I wouldn't be shocked if mcCarthy was having an affair with Mary Kelly either, or at least sex in Lew of rent money.

I'd say that a dead cert Abby but he'd have had to keep up the arrears pretence for Mrs McCarthy
Interestingly I've seen anything between 19 and 35 shillings quoted

[c.d.]

If McCarthy was willing to exchange rent for sex, I doubt that Kelly would be the only female tenant who was part of such an arrangement.

c.d.

[packers stem]

If McCarthy was willing to exchange rent for sex, I doubt that Kelly would be the only female tenant who was part of such an arrangement.

c.d.

She was younger and prettier than most though... Not convinced Cox,Prater and the rest would have been wanted if he had an 'arrangement' with Kelly.
Must have been a good reason for allowing the debt to mount to where it did if it wasn't the case

[c.d.]

Hello Packers Stem,

Years ago I was a waiter down in Florida. A terrible job...but I digress. I was always amazed at the bad and irresponsible behavior the manager was willing to put up with before firing a member of the wait staff. It wasn't because he was a kindly soul willing to give second chances it was because he realized the general nature of the type of people who would apply for that type of job. Basically they were irresponsible and generally bad employees. But if he were to fire one of them for a small infraction of the rules the odds were that not only would he have to train a new employee but most likely the new employee would be just as bad or worse. It was simply the nature of the beast.

I think the same thing is true of McCarthy. The people that he rented to were going to be late with their rent from time to time. That was life in Whitechapel. Kicking them out and getting a new tenant did not guarantee the new tenant would be any better. As for Mary, he probably figured that she was a least somewhat responsible and that he would eventually get paid.
And yes, sex for rent might have been an option.

c.d.

[Rosella]

Mary was almost certainly owing back rent, in view of her joblessness and the inability of Joe Barnett to help out. However, how do we know the rent had accumulated to the sum of 30 shillings? Because McCarthy said so? He would hardly have given receipts and where was Mary's rent book? It's unknown whether the police inspected McCarthy's books but they probably didn't.

In my view he vastly inflated the sum owing because he could then show the world that he was a good man, that he hadn't thown a young and attractive female out onto the streets with a homicidal lunatic about. If Mary had owed more than about ten shillings (a bit more than a couple of weeks rent and she had probably paid less than the full rent for a while) I would be surprised.

I'm with cd on this one. Mary was a bit more attractive than the other ripper victims we know of. However, there were thousands of prostitutes on the streets of London and hundreds (part time and otherwise) in Whitechapel/Spitalfields. We don't know that Mary was such a stunner that men were lining up or that she had a semi-permanent clientele at all, even if she did have her own room. If she was such a huge success why was she in financial distress?

I doubt that she knew her killer. I believe that Mary, in need of money for drink, food and backrent, went out that cold November night and fatefully met Mr Jack Ripper, who was secretly overjoyed to find she had a room of her own and accompanied her back there to thoroughly enjoy himself.