Mary's Cardiff Cousin?

[Mrs. Fiddymont]

I know we've all heard the story about how after her supposed husband was killed while working as a collier, Mary moved to Cardiff. I've always wondered about this.

My first question is about her alleged stay in an infirmary. She was a young woman and apparently healthy, yet the story goes that she spent months in the infirmary. Has anyone picked up any leads on that? Did it really happen and if so, what kind of illness did she have? Do we even have the name of this institution?

My second question--that one that has always intrigued me--is her allegation that after moving to Cardiff she went to live with "a cousin", who supposedly introduced her to prostitution. The assumption seems to be that this was a female cousin who presumably was already working the streets.

But how do we know that? If this cousin did exist, what evidence points to it being a woman? A cousin can just as easily be a male. (That's one of the frustrating things about the English language: we use the identical word, in spelling and pronunciation, regardless of a cousin's gender.) A male cousin could have introduced her to prostitution, if Mary's story is true: he could have been the one who suggested that a pretty young girl like Mary could earn easy money as a prostitute. He could have benefited from it himself, if he acted as her pimp. (I know, it's a repulsive thought, but then again how many gentlemen "rent" girls out for a profit, related or not?)

[Wickerman]

This 'cousin' story is a lead that I think really needs to be explored.

Someone, perhaps Chris Scott?, looked into this hospital stay in Cardiff and came up empty. The reason why escapes me at present, whether records no longer exist, or were incomplete, or the name "Mary Kelly" was not found in the records, I cannot recall.

Mind you, Mary Kelly may not have used her real name when being admitted. I believe Annie Farmer is reported to have always used the name "Smith" when she went to hospital.

The cousin, yes, this could have been either male or female. And on who's side, the mothers or the fathers? What name would we look for?
There's nothing easy in this case.

I'm sure you know a number of theorists/researchers have echoed concern that "Mary Kelly" may not have been the victims real name, and I agree.

In that case the 'real' Mary Kelly may be alive and well in the 1890's, and we are always looking for a dead Mary Kelly.
The victim in Millers Court may have been the cousin who just adopted the real Mary's bio in order to be incognito, so to speak.
So any Mary Kelly's that still exist in the 1891 census may still be worth exploring, especially for a cousin who lived in Cardiff in the 1881 census, but is no longer traceable in 1891.

As if this case wasn't difficult enough....

[Debra A]

Someone, perhaps Chris Scott?, looked into this hospital stay in Cardiff and came up empty. The reason why escapes me at present, whether records no longer exist, or were incomplete, or the name "Mary Kelly" was not found in the records, I cannot recall.

That's right, Wickerman. Chris discovered that the records for the regular Cardiff Infirmary have not survived. I also looked for archives relating to the Caridiff Union Infirmary on Cowbridge Road as I felt there was a good chance 'Mary Jane' would have used that facility but they haven't survived either. In fact not much of any of the poor law records for Cardiff have survived IIRC.

[SuspectZero]

This 'cousin' story is a lead that I think really needs to be explored.

Someone, perhaps Chris Scott?, looked into this hospital stay in Cardiff and came up empty. The reason why escapes me at present, whether records no longer exist, or were incomplete, or the name "Mary Kelly" was not found in the records, I cannot recall.

Mind you, Mary Kelly may not have used her real name when being admitted. I believe Annie Farmer is reported to have always used the name "Smith" when she went to hospital.

The cousin, yes, this could have been either male or female. And on who's side, the mothers or the fathers? What name would we look for?
There's nothing easy in this case.

I'm sure you know a number of theorists/researchers have echoed concern that "Mary Kelly" may not have been the victims real name, and I agree.

In that case the 'real' Mary Kelly may be alive and well in the 1890's, and we are always looking for a dead Mary Kelly.
The victim in Millers Court may have been the cousin who just adopted the real Mary's bio in order to be incognito, so to speak.
So any Mary Kelly's that still exist in the 1891 census may still be worth exploring, especially for a cousin who lived in Cardiff in the 1881 census, but is no longer traceable in 1891.

As if this case wasn't difficult enough....

Or maybe Dorset Street Mary Kelly was really Bridget Kelly of Wales who vanished off the 1881 Census (she would have been 22 then) while Mary stayed on. The family profile sure matched the story she told everyone.

[SuspectZero]

I know we've all heard the story about how after her supposed husband was killed while working as a collier, Mary moved to Cardiff. I've always wondered about this.

My first question is about her alleged stay in an infirmary. She was a young woman and apparently healthy, yet the story goes that she spent months in the infirmary. Has anyone picked up any leads on that? Did it really happen and if so, what kind of illness did she have? Do we even have the name of this institution?

My second question--that one that has always intrigued me--is her allegation that after moving to Cardiff she went to live with "a cousin", who supposedly introduced her to prostitution. The assumption seems to be that this was a female cousin who presumably was already working the streets.

But how do we know that? If this cousin did exist, what evidence points to it being a woman? A cousin can just as easily be a male. (That's one of the frustrating things about the English language: we use the identical word, in spelling and pronunciation, regardless of a cousin's gender.) A male cousin could have introduced her to prostitution, if Mary's story is true: he could have been the one who suggested that a pretty young girl like Mary could earn easy money as a prostitute. He could have benefited from it himself, if he acted as her pimp. (I know, it's a repulsive thought, but then again how many gentlemen "rent" girls out for a profit, related or not?)

Mrs. Fiddy,
Maybe months in an infirmary didn't mean she was sick. What if it meant she "worked" in an infirmary. That's why it was so long a period of time? Maybe we should be looking for Mary Kelly the nurse in Cardiff?

[GUT]

Or could the months in an infirmary have followed a breakdown after loosing her husband.

[GUT]

In the early 1900s there was a mine disaster neàr where my family lived.

The men in that line of the family were miners for generations.

My great Grandmother was away from mod for nearly a month, between laying out the dead and caring for the widows who were totally overwhelmed.

[Sam Flynn]

Check this post out, Mrs F:

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=55202&postcount=5

[Mrs. Fiddymont]

Many thanks to all of you who replied--I do genealogy (as a hobby) and I love nothing better than uncovering "unsavory" family events that most of the family would rather forget. I drive them crazy because (1) I simply cannot help "digging" when I suspect someone is trying to hide something (and if I do say so, I've had pretty good success at revealing some less-than-saintly ancestors, lol); and (2) I believe in telling the facts--sorry if it hurts someone's feelings, but this involves ppl long dead and I feel it's important to set out the truth before it's buried forever. I think that a lot of the rules which apply to genealogy (the honest kind!) are not so different from those used in solving very cold but still-fascinating mysteries. You'd be surprised where a "hunch" can lead you.

I'm like a bloodhound when I think I may be on to something. The better hidden, the more I love the challenge!!

[Rosella]

A few weeks ago I was browsing as I do occasionally and found that Tom Cullen (yes, I know) had this to say about Mary's life in Wales. He wrote that following the accident which had killed Mary's husband the mine owners had been very slow in paying any compensation to his widow. It was about 18 months before they did so. In the interim, because life was hard, Mary drifted to Cardiff, though whether to her cousin or not I don't know. She began her career of prostitution in the Tiger Bay locale of that port, according to Cullen, presumably servicing sailors. I know Cullen is iffy as a chronicler, though I loved Autumn of Terror. However, it's odd that if Mary was truly married and then widowed a year or so later that no-one has found any reference to payout compensation to widows in any mine records that might refer to a Mrs Mary Davis/Davies.

[Jeff Leahy]

The widow story may well have been a sympathy ploy...Many of the victims used them...

However if Mary did end up in Cardiff it seems probable her family took the southern route into Wales rather than the Northen

Thus it seems probable the family lived in Carmarthen Pembrokeshire..

I recently discovered there is an old iron works on the road out to the hospital.

What strikes me as interesting is the catholic community in 1870's would have been fairly sparce and Mary came from a large family...the singing also ties with Carmarthen....

If you wish to dig around records then the catholic church records in Carmarthen seem like the best shot for finding Mary Jane Kelly....which almost certainly was not her family name...

She will have a brother called Jonto, this is interesting as Yanto is also a Carmarthen variation...

I'm fairly certain Mary's family were living in Pembrokeshire

Yours Jeff

[Paddy]

Denis Kelly the Soldier

I think this could be the soldier Denis Kelly who was in an Asylum.

mentioned in the previous link

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...02&postcount=5

Western Mail Thursday 1st January 1885

A deserter Dennis Kelly was charged with deserting from the Sourth Wales Borderers at Waterford a year ago. The police arrested him at Canton, when at first he denied being a deserter, but afterwards admitted the fact.
Prisoner was convicted and detained in custody for the present.

Pat

[Paddy]

Duplicate posting re Denis Kelly

Think I made a bit of a hash posting a previous link, so heer is duplicate

Referring to post 8 ....Sam Flynns

I think this could be the soldier Denis Kelly who was in an Asylum.

Western Mail Thursday 1st January 1885
A deserter Dennis Kelly was charged with deserting from the Sourth Wales Borderers at Waterford a year ago. The police arrested him at Canton, when at first he denied being a deserter, but afterwards admitted the fact.
Prisoner was convicted and detained in custody for the present.

Pat

[Jeff Leahy]

Interesting...where is waterford? Yours Jeff

[Debra A]

I think this could be the soldier Denis Kelly who was in an Asylum.

mentioned in the previous link

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...02&postcount=5

Western Mail Thursday 1st January 1885

A deserter Dennis Kelly was charged with deserting from the Sourth Wales Borderers at Waterford a year ago. The police arrested him at Canton, when at first he denied being a deserter, but afterwards admitted the fact.
Prisoner was convicted and detained in custody for the present.

Pat

Yes, that's him, Pat. He deserted more than once during his career and was discharged 'medically unfit' in 1887. He was originally said to be suffering 'mania', altered later to say dementia.

He was the son of John Kelly of Halkett St. The Mary Jane at Hallket St Sam found was the daughter of Daniel Kelly. Both had sons named Denis but the Denis in the Welsh Borderers gave his father's name as John. It's possible, even likely, that this Denis and Mary Jane on the same street were cousins with the older woman Elizabeth who was also on Hallkett St in 71 and 81, as was John, being Daniel and John's mother-therefore Mary Jane and Denis's grandmother.