Panoramic Of Miller's Court..

[richardh]

Pierre,
Can I clarify what you are saying please as I'm a still confused at what you consider to be the correct interpretation of the Goad plan?

You are saying:
the ONLY door along the arched passageway (from Dorset st into Miller's Court) is the door into #13? (yes/no?)
The occupants of rooms on the upper floors (#19, #20...) enter the house via the front door into #26? (yes/no?)
From there the occupants go up the stairs (Prater's stairs) which leads to a door positioned above the archway passage on the left going up the stairs?
This door leads to rooms #20 as well as crossing OVER the arch passage into #27? (yes/no?)

You are saying that the annotation '1st' on Goad is saying the opening is on the floor ABOVE the shed/#13? (yes/no?)


Is this what you are suggesting?

thanks
R

Social bias has put the door between the shop ("shed") and Maryīs room on the ground floor to the left but the door on the first floor in itīs right position in the middle of the wall. Why is it impossible to follow Goadīs map instead of gut feeling and put the door in itīs right position according to Goadīs = in the middle of the brick wall?

Should not this work of art be correct? Now it is wrong. And will probably stay that way.

Regards Pierre

[richardh]

Slight update:
I was looking at the Goad map and wanted to be certain that the copy I had was the correct scale and aspect ratio (not stretched etc.). So I am now using a map which has been over-laid onto Google maps from here:

LINK

This ensures that my measurements are a bit more accurate and I can marry these up with the demolition photo with more confidence. I have also been able to put Christchurch (Spitalfields) in the correct place and you'll see that the church spire is just out of shot on the demolition photo.

Updated .gif:

[The Good Michael]

What Pierre believes is that the partition between kelly's room and the shed was a nearly functional door rather than an old door used as part of the wall. But as I can tell, you haven't even built Kelly's back wall yet, the wall shared with the shed. What you have is the door to the stairwell and another door into the shed, but haven't fleshed out the entirety of Kelly's room yet.

Mike

[richardh]

That's correct. I've placed a door shaped oblong at the point in the wall that we see the 'door' in the partition in MJK1. There's no attempt at a partition along that wall because there's too much controversy and speculation at the moment as to what constitutes a 'partition'. Is it a whole wall / part wall / door sized opening / double door sized / TWO door openings (one we see in MJK1 and perhaps another on the same wall nearer the chimney/fire?) / NO wall at all with the entirety a partition? Who knows?

What Pierre believes is that the partition between kelly's room and the shed was a nearly functional door rather than an old door used as part of the wall. But as I can tell, you haven't even built Kelly's back wall yet, the wall shared with the shed. What you have is the door to the stairwell and another door into the shed, but haven't fleshed out the entirety of Kelly's room yet.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

That's correct. I've placed a door shaped oblong at the point in the wall that we see the 'door' in the partition in MJK1. There's no attempt at a partition along that wall because there's too much controversy and speculation at the moment as to what constitutes a 'partition'. Is it a whole wall / part wall / door sized opening / double door sized / TWO door openings (one we see in MJK1 and perhaps another on the same wall nearer the chimney/fire?) / NO wall at all with the entirety a partition? Who knows?

I think it's pretty safe to just put a wall there going across the span of the shed up to where the stairwell goes up. It seems to have been a room added later to house any additional renters and is really straightforward. The door is just a part of whatever other wood they slapped up to partition it off and may be seen in the MJK photo that shows her full body.

Mike

[Pierre]

That's correct. I've placed a door shaped oblong at the point in the wall that we see the 'door' in the partition in MJK1. There's no attempt at a partition along that wall because there's too much controversy and speculation at the moment as to what constitutes a 'partition'. Is it a whole wall / part wall / door sized opening / double door sized / TWO door openings (one we see in MJK1 and perhaps another on the same wall nearer the chimney/fire?) / NO wall at all with the entirety a partition? Who knows?

Take the real measure from the map. Donīt bother the photo MJK1 or what people think or feel.

Regards Pierre

[richardh]

So, that's a five foot wide door then Pierre?

Take the real measure from the map. Donīt bother the photo MJK1 or what people think or feel.

Regards Pierre

[Michael W Richards]

Take the real measure from the map. Donīt bother the photo MJK1 or what people think or feel.

Regards Pierre

Are you really this obtuse? Richards patience is to be lauded, but for the last time I would encourage anyone that if Pierre directs a question regarding a door that was fixed in place to partition off room 13, and was in no way was functional as a door at the time of the murders, please do not encourage him by playing along.

There is an old door that was used in the creation of the partition wall, it is put in place with the old exterior facing inward with the faded numbers 26 on it visible from Marys room, and in no way was it operational. There was NO access to Marys room through the partition wall. There are plenty of references that speak of it as a barrier, a wall, or a partition...only in Pierres apparently vivid imagination is it assumed an accessway.

I cant believe a grown person would need to be told this same thing dozens of times by many sources, so I'm either wrong in that belief when it comes to Pierre, or Pierre is just being an ass because he can.

[The Good Michael]

So, that's a five foot wide door then Pierre?

Actually Richard, I believe that the shed had an archway in the middle as support. That's what that opening is. When it was partitioned, that archway was blocked up using an old door and wood and (probably) plaster.

Mike

[richardh]

Agreed.
I've adjusting the model and will post a vid later,

thanks

Actually Richard, I believe that the shed had an archway in the middle as support. That's what that opening is. When it was partitioned, that archway was blocked up using an old door and wood and (probably) plaster.

Mike

[GUT]

Looking forward to it Richard

[Ginger]

I've said nothing so far on this thread, but I do want to thank you, richardh, for the incredible amount of thought and work that you've put into this. Diagrams and projections like this can be so remarkably useful in helping one to visualize the scene of the crime, and to understand what spatial and perceptual constraints operated upon both the victim and the murderer. Your efforts are appreciated!

[Pierre]

So, that's a five foot wide door then Pierre?

Hi Richardh,

From where do you get that measure? It is not correct. We want your work to be correct, naturally.

Use a ruler. Put it over the street. Measure up 12 centimeters. 1 cm = 0,63 meters across the street. This is your scale now. Keep the picture of the map in this scale.

Measure the doorway now where there is no black line in it/where it is free from black.

Youīll see that it is 2,4 centimeters. Convert this into meters: 0,63*2,4 = 151 centimeters. Convert it into ft = 4,11.

Look at the picture on MJK1. Around the door is a doorframe. This is a part of the width of the door. So how wide is it without the frame? That is something you will have to estimate from MJK1. But the correct measure for the doorway and for the door
including itīs doorframe is 151 centimeters (4,11 ft).

And I also have to mention that in the 1880īs they DID actually have wooden partitions with functional doors in it, if that is what anyone thinks this was. You will find this type of construction described in the British Newspaper Archive. But I donīt think it is such a construction. I think it is an ordinary door with a frame in the brick wall, leading from the front of the shop to the back of it. And if anyone had put some nails in it, or some plaster or even a bit of wall paper on it - who knows.

Regards, Pierre

[richardh]

that's fine Pierre. 4'11" (approx 5ft) which we can call an opening/door/arch/partition. Regardless, I think we are all agreed the 'opening' is about 4ft from the passageway wall and is wide enough to entail boarding-up with more than a door's width of wood/plaster/spare front door from #26 etc.

I'm going for a door's width plus 4ft which will consist of the front door from #26 (in the position seen in MJK1) patched up mid-wall with boarding and plaster.

So a 6.5 - 7ft (door + opening) middle-of-wall (4ft from passage wall & 4ft from chimney wall) that separates #13 from #26.

Can't say fairer than that

Hi Richardh,

From where do you get that measure? It is not correct. We want your work to be correct, naturally.

Use a ruler. Put it over the street. Measure up 12 centimeters. 1 cm = 0,63 meters across the street. This is your scale now. Keep the picture of the map in this scale.

Measure the doorway now where there is no black line in it/where it is free from black.

Youīll see that it is 2,4 centimeters. Convert this into meters: 0,63*2,4 = 151 centimeters. Convert it into ft = 4,11.

Look at the picture on MJK1. Around the door is a doorframe. This is a part of the width of the door. So how wide is it without the frame? That is something you will have to estimate from MJK1. But the correct measure for the doorway and for the door
including itīs doorframe is 151 centimeters (4,11 ft).

And I also have to mention that in the 1880īs they DID actually have wooden partitions with functional doors in it, if that is what anyone thinks this was. You will find this type of construction described in the British Newspaper Archive. But I donīt think it is such a construction. I think it is an ordinary door with a frame in the brick wall, leading from the front of the shop to the back of it. And if anyone had put some nails in it, or some plaster or even a bit of wall paper on it - who knows.

Regards, Pierre

[Pierre]

that's fine Pierre. 4'11" (approx 5ft) which we can call an opening/door/arch/partition. Regardless, I think we are all agreed the 'opening' is about 4ft from the passageway wall and is wide enough to entail boarding-up with more than a door's width of wood/plaster/spare front door from #26 etc.

I'm going for a door's width plus 4ft which will consist of the front door from #26 (in the position seen in MJK1) patched up mid-wall with boarding and plaster.

So a 6.5 - 7ft (door + opening) middle-of-wall (4ft from passage wall & 4ft from chimney wall) that separates #13 from #26.

Can't say fairer than that

Richardh,

what data program do you use for this?

Regards Pierre