John McCarthy - Property Question

[MsWeatherwax]

Well, I'm sure he didn't manage that by letting all of his tenants run up the kind of arrears Mary had.

It really is infuriating - so much of the story just doesn't feel quite right, but there's nothing to properly connect the dots if you will.

By the way, I'm not implying that he had anything to do with the murder/s - I just think that the majority of sources we have in the Kelly case were very economical with the truth for all sorts of vested reasons.

[MysterySinger]

Well, I'm sure he didn't manage that by letting all of his tenants run up the kind of arrears Mary had.

It really is infuriating - so much of the story just doesn't feel quite right, but there's nothing to properly connect the dots if you will.

By the way, I'm not implying that he had anything to do with the murder/s - I just think that the majority of sources we have in the Kelly case were very economical with the truth for all sorts of vested reasons.

Ain't that the truth. For example, would you give your real name to reporters if you knew a serial killer might read it?

[Rosella]

^ I've always wondered whether McCarthy was gilding the lily a bit about the amount of Mary's rent arrears. I've no doubt that she did owe some rent but McCarthy might have been at pains to point out that with all the fear in the East End at the time he didn't cast a young woman out on the streets with nowhere to go. No, he was a good and generous landlord, prepared to wait until better times happened for Mary!

[MsWeatherwax]

I'd be less than keen, I must admit.

I have absolutely no real proof, but there is still a small part of me that does wonder if McCarthy wasn't directly 'living off immoral earnings', at least when it came to MJK. It would explain the arrears.

[MrBarnett]

This is Arthur Harding on Jimmy Smith and John McCarthy:

"Jimmy made the best part of his money by selling coals around Flower and Dean Street. He had a coal-shed there and by buying small quantities of coal and that, running around with the coal when the customers come and couldn't carry it back, he made a tidy bit of money. He earned a packet by selling coal at double the price. That's how he bought the furnished rooms and the kip-house down Flower and Dean Street. Like Johnny McCarty down in Dosset Street. He was and old-clothes dealer and then he went in for furnished rooms. Those Irish blokes who came over here set up little businesses like that, they got it out of swindling poor people out of small sums"

Arthur's not always reliable, though.

[MsWeatherwax]

Ain't that the truth. For example, would you give your real name to reporters if you knew a serial killer might read it?

^ I've always wondered whether McCarthy was gilding the lily a bit about the amount of Mary's rent arrears. I've no doubt that she did owe some rent but McCarthy might have been at pains to point out that with all the fear in the East End at the time he didn't cast a young woman out on the streets with nowhere to go. No, he was a good and generous landlord, prepared to wait until better times happened for Mary!

It's crossed my mind too, and for the same reason. I just find it almost impossible to that he let them get that high unless he was completely certain he'd be getting it back. Even today, a landlord can go to court for statutory eviction at eight weeks arrears.

Mrs Barnett: that is a really interesting piece...thank you.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

He was also clever about taking profit of anti slums act passed by the govt. (Cross act and others)
Something about receiving money to conform to the new standards, but since there were no proper inspectors, he just expanded.

There were a few partners together: McCarthy, Crossingham, Cooney, and the Smith family.

He also had contacts with music-hall, but that could be after 1888.

Not sure, but I think he also made money selling buildings at a high price to the Rothschild family, who destroyed them to build houses for Jewish family south of Spitalfields (like the house on Goulston Street).

[SirJohnFalstaff]

^ I've always wondered whether McCarthy was gilding the lily a bit about the amount of Mary's rent arrears. I've no doubt that she did owe some rent but McCarthy might have been at pains to point out that with all the fear in the East End at the time he didn't cast a young woman out on the streets with nowhere to go. No, he was a good and generous landlord, prepared to wait until better times happened for Mary!

There are speculations that since he (or people working for him) could see the ins and outs of Miller's court, he was taking a "tax" on customers visiting prostitutes.

Since Mary went back on the streets after her boyfriend left, maybe they had an arrangement on how to pay the rent back.

[Azarna]

The 29s overdue rent has always bothered me. That is 6 1/2 weeks worth, a long time and a significant amount of money.

Why did McCarthy say Mary Jane owed 29s in rent?

1 - McCarthy knew Mary Jane personally, so perhaps he was enamored with her and was more lenient with her, allowing her to build up the debt - but he would surely have known she would struggle to pay 29s back at all.

2 - McCarthy was actually being paid or partially paid by availing himself of her services, so to speak. But why mention the debt?. Would he have not just fudged the books as he went along?

3 - McCarthy inflated the amount actually owed on the off-chance that one of MJ's relatives would pay her debt? Surely a very unlikely thing to happen.

4 - McCarthy inflated the amount actually owed because he thought it would reflect well on him, that he was a kind, decent sort etc? I doubt this as surely he would not want his other lodgers thinking they also could run up a debt. It seems very strange that he would want to publicly admit to allowing this to happen as it does not look professional and could lead to others thinking him a "soft touch" - a very bad thing in his line of work.

5 - McCarthy allowed MJ to stay, despite the overdue rent, because he was being given a cut in her earnings? - they why would he not put this money against the rent owed. It would allow him to hide the extra income in his account books. I really don't see the logic in this particular argument.

I would imagine the police would also have wondered why a business man would allow such a debt to accumulate, when McCarthy must have been aware that MJ did not have regular income, and that Barnett was no longer around.

I can think of plenty of reasons why publicly announcing that one of his tenants had racked up over 6 weeks of overdue rent would be bad for McCarthy. But I can't think of a good one. Other than "he was under oath and it was the truth". All very odd.

[John Wheat]

To Azarna

Why not add McCarthy to the list of suspects?

Cheers John

[GUT]

G'day Azarna

All those are possible, as are more, just two


1. He was a nice bloke and felt sorry for her

2. he was telling th truth when he said you got the money as and when you could and if he had evicted her would have had the same problem with the next and the ine after tha and the ine after that again

As to getting pain in kink and fudging the books, the Missus may ave looked after the books and asked why if he did that,

The act that neither the police nor th press seem to ave found the situation strange a the time makes me lean towards number 2 above.

[Abby Normal]

Ive always thought there was the possibility he was lenient with her on the rent in lew of sexual favors

[miss marple]

The chances are Mary and Joe would have made small contributions each week but not the full amount. The arrears would have mounted up. It was quite usual to pay some on account. Everyone was in the same position.What ever McCarthy was receiving from his tenants would still have been profit. If McCarthy had an income of 200 pounds per annum that was a respectable middle class income. A clerk would be on about 100/150. whereas an east ender was around 50 or less.

Miss Marple

[GUT]

The chances are Mary and Joe would have made small contributions each week but not the full amount. The arrears would have mounted up. It was quite usual to pay some on account. Everyone was in the same position.What ever McCarthy was receiving from his tenants would still have been profit. If McCarthy had an income of 200 pounds per annum that was a respectable middle class income. A clerk would be on about 100/150. whereas an east ender was around 50 or less.

Miss Marple

I agree.

I doubt that the arrears, sometimes expressed as being x weeks worth, were rattled up in x weeks, more likely 2 or 3 x weeks, with some weeks the full amount paid, but most weeks being a bit short and "Fix it up when a few bob comes in" and as you say all profit, plus the profit on sales fom his shop.

[c.d.]

G'day Azarna

All those are possible, as are more, just two


1. He was a nice bloke and felt sorry for her

2. he was telling th truth when he said you got the money as and when you could and if he had evicted her would have had the same problem with the next and the ine after tha and the ine after that again

As to getting pain in kink and fudging the books, the Missus may ave looked after the books and asked why if he did that,

The act that neither the police nor th press seem to ave found the situation strange a the time makes me lean towards number 2 above.

Hello GUT,

Yeah, number two. It is reasonable to assume that Mary and Joe had a history of paying something when they had it. Why evict Mary and take a chance on the next person being a complete deadbeat? Paying what you could when you could was probably par for the course with the kind of tenants he was most likely to have.

c.d.