Prater's stairs

[richardh]

Stephen,
The 'Thomas Plan' For your consideration and feedback please:



Concerns:

The person coming out of #20 won't be able to see #19 door across the hall - which poses problems for the Kitty Ronan situation.

#19 I gave a bit of floor space (red square) because I thought evry bit of space should be used!

Is the store room correct?

thanks
R

[Wickerman]

Now then:
That gap in #13



Jon, you say that the goad says if there is no annotation like '1st', 2nd' etc then the openings are on ALL levels. That wall is a 3 level wall:
1st = #13 - partitioned over door/opening
2nd = #19 - which had its door in that wall
3rd = room - above #19 which had a window facing into the court right above the sloping roof of #19

Could ALL the openings mentioned (above) all be in the same line - one above the other? and if so the line would be the centre of that wall (where the window above the sloping roof is positioned).

AND if the goad map only 'indicates' openings on all three floors but NOT the position then the opening in the passageway (indicated on Goad) could be just an arbitrary position and open to interpretation.

Thinking out loud here and could be totally wrong!

Quite correct Richard, only an opening (yes, on all three levels), is being identified, but not at what position along each wall.
The openings 'may' have been in line (one above the other), but equally, they could have been staggered so neither opening was directly above or below one of the others.

Insurance adjusters only need to know whether fire can easily pass between rooms, not how big the openings are, nor their location along any wall.
That is superfluous data to them.

[richardh]

The common theme between those two goad marks ( gap in the passageway and the gap in #13) is that both gaps are placed dead center to the line. I suppose that was the convention - 'there's an opening somewhere on that wall so we'll place a centralised indicator'.

Quite correct Richard, only an opening (yes, on all three levels), is being identified, but not at what position along each wall.
The openings 'may' have been in line (one above the other), but equally, they could have been staggered so neither opening was directly above or below one of the others.

Insurance adjusters only need to know whether fire can easily pass between rooms, not how big the openings are, nor their location along any wall.
That is superfluous data to them.

[MBDecre]

Hi guys/ladys...

I'm wondering if richard's last but one render was more accurate (at least to the outline given in the 1899 murder testimony.)

Sorry richard, I can see you've done a lot more work there and I think it's 95% probably right, but...

I think where you originally had Prater's/Roberts' door for 19 on the 2nd floor was right, and the door to 20. Both being opposite across the landing by the stairs. And the store-room with one door opening onto the landing.

I think I can see your logic, relative to the new stair arrangement, for making the 'store' have a door each end, linking 20 and 19... but this means it's just a thoroughfare and then there's no 3rd room/store for ad-hoc "lodgers and their children" (as described in the 1899 Marshal murder case).

I'm not saying your latest render is wrong (none of us know for certain, either way)... I just felt the previous render had an elegant simplicity re no 19, the store room, and no 20. It matched the Marshal murder testimony and the probable doors matched the gaps in the Goad map as explained by Jon (wickerman) especially re no. 19. And it matched the period photo and drawings of the court.

The passage arch next to MJK's door needs to move back to just rear of the door to Prater's stairs. We ought to take the photos of MJK's door and the obvious door to Prater's/19 stairs as actual. THose are two of our few certain 'landmarks'. This is shown in at least 4 period drawings by diferent artists for different papers at different times and totally corroborate each other.

I think once those two points (the doors) are fixed, especially Prater's, the problem becomes an internal one, fixing the stairs in a different way.

Just my POV guys.

[richardh]

That image (the last one posted above) is based on Stephen Thomas' plan. I'm doing two plans. The other one is still active and being tweaked. We'll have TWO versions to argue over

TWO PLANS
Goad's Plan
Thomas Plan (Thomas plan above)

Hi guys/ladys...

I think richard's last but one render was more accurate (at least to the outline given in the 1899 murder testimony.)

Sorry richard, I can see you've done a lot more work there and I think it's 95% probably right, but...

I think where you originally had Prater's/Roberts' door for 19 was right, and the door to 20. Both being opposite across the landing by the stairs. And the store-room with one door opening onto the landing.

What was your logic for making the store have a door each end, linking 20 and 19?

[Wickerman]

The common theme between those two goad marks ( gap in the passageway and the gap in #13) is that both gaps are placed dead center to the line. I suppose that was the convention - 'there's an opening somewhere on that wall so we'll place a centralised indicator'.

Absolutely Richard yes, the opening is only a 'symbol', its location is not critical.
These are not construction dwg's, only reference dwg's.

[Stephen Thomas]

Stephen,
The 'Thomas Plan' For your consideration and feedback please:



Concerns:

The person coming out of #20 won't be able to see #19 door across the hall - which poses problems for the Kitty Ronan situation.

#19 I gave a bit of floor space (red square) because I thought evry bit of space should be used!

Is the store room correct?

thanks
R

Jesus you're good Richard.

You can sleep well tonight. You've completely cracked it.

The storeroom needs to be enlarged slightly to incorporate the corridor.

I'll explain tomorrow.

[Wickerman]

This is part of the Legend (table of symbols).



As you can see, all windows, roof vents, openings, and iron-doors are merely 'symbols', they are not drawn to any scale.

[GUT]

I object! I do not SEE anything! There was NO opening between number 26 and number 13! NONONO. It was ONLY A PARTITION WALL, CUTTING the room OFF from the rest of the house.

No one could have come to Mary´s room through a passage like that since there was none. It was a PARTITION WALL. NOTHING else. No doorway. No door. No space for entrance. No nothing.

Amen.

Pierre

You're not making yourself clear, Pierre.

G'day Jon

And your surprised by that??

[GUT]

I think Pierre's flipped.

G'day Richard

So you noticed?

[Wickerman]

Stephen,
The 'Thomas Plan' For your consideration and feedback please:



Concerns:

The person coming out of #20 won't be able to see #19 door across the hall - which poses problems for the Kitty Ronan situation.

#19 I gave a bit of floor space (red square) because I thought evry bit of space should be used!

Is the store room correct?

thanks
R

There was no wall between the 'Store' and the main staircase (re: Kate Marshall case).

The second staircase built up through the rear rooms (13 & 19), does not serve any purpose, when a simple door through the wall on each level would serve the same purpose.

Can anyone explain what the purpose is to building another set of stairs along side the main staircase up to the 2nd floor?

[MBDecre]

You express all my concerns (see 499), Jon. But more concisely done!! Smile.

[Elamarna]

Hi all.

Richard both look close to me. Glad you decided to do 2 different plans. I didn't think you would ever get a general consensus on just 1.

However I do agree with Wickerman about two sets of stairs to a point, why are two sets needed which seem to do the same job. Seems to almost be due to the position of the outside door to me. Could the next point about positioning of gaps help solve this issue.

Sure you and Wicker man are right about the gaps in the wall. They indicate openings but not the size or position of that opening. The problem has been that the map was not meant to be accurate on such things.

The true is or course we cannot be sure and your work is both extremely intuitive and outstanding.

With regards to my friend Pierre, don't worry he is trying to be sarcastic and coming across like a teenager having a tantrum. Sure he will be back to normal soon.

Steve

[Robert St Devil]

Hello richardh.

Starting to look like an MC Escher house. I dont understand the purpose of all those stairs. My skepticism is based on the No. 13 door, was it in the orignal design or cut in later by Miller. I know i read about it somewhere, but it hasnt been that easy to find otra vez.

I am 95% that Prater was describing the partition wall in her testimony.
The fact that she used the court door instead of the front door makes me 50-50 that the shed was cut off from the stairs by a partition, so that walking into the court door meant walking into a passage.
I would have expected there could have been a steep set of winding stairs against the far wall, the kind that goes up 4 or 5 feet to a small landing, then turns back on itself and goes up another 4 or 5 feet to the 1st floor landing. Maybe the entire staircase was 9 feet wide. It would be beside the cupboard in No. 13, and its location would separate a front salon from the back parlour.

I bought a month on British News Archives, had to see if Daily Telegraph from nov 12 88 had better details since i saw Wickerman coonect it to J Tulley. Unf, it hasnt been uploaded yet. Plenty of other interesting & conflicting reports.

Illustrated Police News, 24 November 1888

[Elamarna]

Robert don't get confused its the Sheffield daily telegraph. not the daily telegraph if it what you and i were speaking about.

if it is, its there on the British newspaper archive website. I think its page 2 of the edition on the 12th. only about 8 lines or so if i remember