Prater's stairs

[GUT]

The firewalls in the plan would suggest so.

i always too t to have been originally a shop with accommodation over and perhaps behind which, I think, would still require a firewall.

[Robert St Devil]

Traditionally, the parlour of a terrace house was at the back, so if rm 13 was not original, then where was the parlour for No.26 Dorset St.?

Kelly's room was described as a parlour.

Hi Wickerman.

I have a p!$$ poor suggestion but is a start.

They build a staircase in tye same location as richard has it. Its up against the far wall (by No 25). It goes up 4 or 5 ft, and turns back on itself. It may have a closet underneath. So that when you are looking at the wall, it goes: fireplace, cupboard, staircase. The wall along the staircase (next to the cupboard) creates something of a parlour (fireplace, cupboard, view of the court).

Heres the hard to swallow part: Miller cuts a door and builds a corridor leadng to the staircase, partitioned on both sides.

[richardh]

Thank you Jon. This is precisely what I've been asking for... feedback and suggestions (especially with annotated suggestions like you've given me) Thank you.

This plan (the one you've corrected for me) is based almost exactly on Stephen Thomas' drawings which I found on these forums and which I assumed would be a more accurate layout for the building. Stephen T has said that:

"I sussed out the inevitable internal layout of 26 Dorset Street and the connection with 13 Millers Court and 'Prater's stairs' years ago and if you want my help in creating a realistic video just ask."

So I was hoping that those drawings were the sussed out layout! perhaps not. Stephen hasn't yet replied to my Private Message plea for help on this.


Q: Am I to assume that those two reference drawings by Stephen Thomas are incorrect?

- Room 19 is no more than 10ft deep (ref. Goads scale).
- Stairs within rm 19 to be erased.
- Stairwell/Storeroom section is 9ft deep (ref. Kate Marshall case).
- Praters door needs to be located within this 9ft section, but on the ground floor.

[richardh]

Okay, Latest ground floor ONLY:

Opinions / suggestions MUCH needed please !

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Robert.

The thing about rm 13 is, we don't know if it was an addition, or part of the original design. It looks like an addition from the back.

Traditionally, the parlour of a terrace house was at the back, so if rm 13 was not original, then where was the parlour for No.26 Dorset St.?

Kelly's room was described as a parlour.

Im convinced that before it was modified it was the parlour for #26 Jon. Ive always thought that the windows were unprofessionally set based on the photographs though, so to what extent the room was modified isn't clear. The transformation to courtyard room I think consisted of the partitioning, the addition of a courtyard door, and perhaps one or more of the windows.

I don't see a need for a second door on that wall unless it is specifically for that room, the access under the archway is not very far up the passage, and gave access to both the parlour and the stairs. Which makes me believe that the staircase was on the right as you entered, the parlour on the left ...through an arched accessway?,...and not adjacent to Marys room. The parlour access seems to dictate that. I can easily see an open access to the parlour and the fireplace, for one reason because that fireplace may also have warmed the hall and stairs. It would be nice to look in as you entered.

That means that there was likely a small area behind Marys room, between her room and the stairs, because I believe they would partition the space at the existing arch or partial wall.

[richardh]

I have to acknowledge that I am TOTALLY and utterly lost and confused now. I have partition walls, real walls, partial walls, no walls. Widths that are 12ft and widths that are 15 ft. Stairs that run parallel to the partition and stairs that are nowhere near the partition and run up the right side of the access hallway. I've got Prater's doorway right next to the partition and then I've got Prater's door 8ft from Dorset street AND then I've got it pretty much central down the passageway.

And with no consensus and a half dozen arguments going on I don't think we are getting anywhere !

I've tried basing things on Simon Wood's plans = failed
I've tried basing things on Stephen Thomas' drawings = failed

Next?

[Michael W Richards]

Okay, Latest ground floor ONLY:

Opinions / suggestions MUCH needed please !

Hi richard,

That looks to me to be close, although I don't see the stairs being a quick jog to the left when you enter the building from the door under the archway. I would think they should have been directly ahead, with the access to the salon to the left. But your diagram does makes some sense when compared with the descriptions of how the layout was. And that old door originally from the shed does fit in nicely with where it should be based on MJK1. If that's correct then all they needed to do was fix the door in place and put some plaster and paper over it to "partition" the room from the rest of the house.

I think by George you may have it.

Now, if Praters room was in that section upstairs to the right of the staircase within that segmented line and arrow that you use to show the dimensions of that space, then its possible her room was "over the shed" but also almost over Marys room. The window that I believe she heard the cry "as if from the court" was the one over the archway, maybe that's what allows some air flow for the second floor.

[Robert St Devil]

Hello MwR.
My problem (again) with this layout is: there is a staircase bisecting the ground floor in half. If MJKs door was a later-addition, then the 'back room' would only be accessible thru the windows.

[Pierre]

I have to acknowledge that I am TOTALLY and utterly lost and confused now. I have partition walls, real walls, partial walls, no walls. Widths that are 12ft and widths that are 15 ft. Stairs that run parallel to the partition and stairs that are nowhere near the partition and run up the right side of the access hallway. I've got Prater's doorway right next to the partition and then I've got Prater's door 8ft from Dorset street AND then I've got it pretty much central down the passageway.

And with no consensus and a half dozen arguments going on I don't think we are getting anywhere !

I've tried basing things on Simon Wood's plans = failed
I've tried basing things on Stephen Thomas' drawings = failed

Next?

Hi Richardh,

I will try to help.

For the measures:

Here you have a measure you can use. Consider it a key. It is a small green line on the map. This green key is 0,63 m. (63 cm). It is ALWAYS 63 centimeters , even if you zoom the map.

For the definitions:

There is a brick wall in the map according to Goadīs explanation.

Could this brick wall be called a "partition wall"? I have checked the British Newspaper Archive and:

There is no talk of a "partition wall" in any of the newspapers between the 9th and 14th of November. There is only talk about a "partition" and of a "wooden partition". No partition "wall".

You see the doorway in Goadīs map? Yes, that is the only place where it would ever be necessary to put a partition, since there is a brick wall there already.


How to do it:

Firstly, we can only know some things. Start working with what we know.

After that, you can try two (or more) hypothetical models of the stairs. It is easier to do that once you have made the plan with the correct measures.

Now, concerning the famous (!) "partition":

1. Measure the doorway and you will have the measure for the "wooden partition". It can be nowhere else since there is a brick wall there already.

2. To see how the wooden partition must have looked: The wooden partition is on the photograph MJK.

There you see how it looks from Maryīs room.

On the other side, in number 26, it might have had some wallpaper but nothing in the sources indicates that. So I would not draw that.

I believe you will make an excellent plan out of this.

Once you have this plan, you may work out several hypotheses on it.

That would be really interesting, and once this step is taken, I believe you will get a lot of input from people here and lots of new ideas.

Perhaps you may even solve the "mystery" of the stairs. I really believe you can do that.

Regards Pierre

[Robert St Devil]

Pierre

Have you considered Wickermans suggestion that 'that brick wall' line is actually indicating where it changes from a 3 stories to a 2 stories?

[richardh]

Pierre,
Thanks for the input.

On that map can you mark where you think the 'partition' is please?

Hi Richardh,

I will try to help.

For the measures:

Here you have a measure you can use. Consider it a key. It is a small green line on the map. This green key is 0,63 m. (63 cm). It is ALWAYS 63 centimeters , even if you zoom the map.

For the definitions:

There is a brick wall in the map according to Goadīs explanation.

Could this brick wall be called a "partition wall"? I have checked the British Newspaper Archive and:

There is no talk of a "partition wall" in any of the newspapers between the 9th and 14th of November. There is only talk about a "partition" and of a "wooden partition". No partition "wall".

You see the doorway in Goadīs map? Yes, that is the only place where it would ever be necessary to put a partition, since there is a brick wall there already.


How to do it:

Firstly, we can only know some things. Start working with what we know.

After that, you can try two (or more) hypothetical models of the stairs. It is easier to do that once you have made the plan with the correct measures.

Now, concerning the famous (!) "partition":

1. Measure the doorway and you will have the measure for the "wooden partition". It can be nowhere else since there is a brick wall there already.

2. To see how the wooden partition must have looked: The wooden partition is on the photograph MJK.

There you see how it looks from Maryīs room.

On the other side, in number 26, it might have had some wallpaper but nothing in the sources indicates that. So I would not draw that.

I believe you will make an excellent plan out of this.

Once you have this plan, you may work out several hypotheses on it.

That would be really interesting, and once this step is taken, I believe you will get a lot of input from people here and lots of new ideas.

Perhaps you may even solve the "mystery" of the stairs. I really believe you can do that.

Regards Pierre

[richardh]

I know this has turned into a LONG thread and I've lost track of some things so forgive me if this is obvious:

Have we established that the partition and the back wall of 26 (not Mary's room) are either one and the same or two separate entities?

Have we established where the 2nd doorway (Prater's Door) is up the passageway?

The partition and the 2nd doorway are key to all this.

The partition:

Is it a full width structure that was put up to segregate 13 from 26/salon?
Is it an ORIGINAL BRICK (back wall to 26) wall with the ORIGINAL doorway blocked up (and referred to as the partition).
Is there a partition AND an Original back wall with Prater's stairs between?

Now, I'm going to Costa Coffee and will expect all this to be settled when I get back

[Pierre]

Pierre,
Thanks for the input.

On that map can you mark where you think the 'partition' is please?

Sure. It must have been in the only place where one could walk through the rooms and that is where the doorway was.

And there was obviously a door in this doorway.

The brick wall on the sides had wainscoting on it. Obviously.

One can compare it to any random picture of a door with wainscoting on the sides.

Hope you enjoyed going to Costa Coffee!

Regards Pierre

[Elamarna]

wasn't going to comment until Richard had finished , and not disagreeing with anything.

I have been trying to understand all the is flying around about interpreting the map;but looking at the Goad map/plan, we seem to have a brick wall running across the passageway.

for my own understanding, could some one explain that too me please. because obviously there is not one?

[Pierre]

wasn't going to comment until Richard had finished , and not disagreeing with anything.

I have been trying to understand all the is flying around about interpreting the map;but looking at the Goad map/plan, we seem to have a brick wall running across the passageway.

for my own understanding, could some one explain that too me please. because obviously there is not one?

Hi Steve,

If you look at Goadīs explanation it says "Passage under". The brick wall marked on the map is over the passage. Number 26 had 3 floors and Millerīs Court had 2.

Regards Pierre