Prater's stairs

[David Orsam]

Pierre posted a newspaper sketch where wooden paneling covered the front of No.26.

I don't recall saying his report was false, the reporter could easily have believed the police boarded the front up when in fact it was a permanent modification done by McCarthy to access his shed.

That's fine. I just meant false as in inaccurate or mistaken, because the windows were not, in fact, boarded up.

Wanted to clarify so that I understood we were talking about the same thing.

[David Orsam]

The second thing is that for a few periods I lived in rooms about 6' wide.

For about 15 years I shared a room 9x6 with my brother who was 5 years older than me.

Then while working for he RAAF I had a room 12x6. With a bad 4' wide

So I don't see 6 foot as totally unrealistic.

In which case maybe that is indeed the answer as to how the plan is consistent with the reality of Kelly's room.

[David Orsam]

You've lost me David, what does the width of the passage have to do with anything?

Because my thinking was that the "opening" that we see on the Goad map along the side of number 26 was, in fact, the gate being referred to in the newspaper report. In other words, I was thinking that the barrows were wheeled down the passage and into the front room of number 26 via this gate. But that only works if the barrows were somewhere between 2.5 and 3ft in width, otherwise, as you and others have pointed out, they wouldn't have been able to fit down the passage, thus making the gate useless for the purpose.

[David Orsam]

I've come round to the view that the costermonger's barrows couldn't have fitted down the passage but just want to throw a little spanner in the works. This is from a biography of an east end girl, Hilda Kemp, living in Bermondsey called "We Ain't Got No Drink Pa" (here regarding the year 1933):

"...I was nervous at what Pa was doing now. He grunted and puffed a bit more and then the object he'd been pulling into the room was revealed. It was a barrow, an enormous, two-wheeled, costermonger's barrow that was probably used to ferry enormous sackloads of fruit and vegetables from the cold stores to market, or to sell wares on the street. It had large wooden wheels and a flat wooden base that filled most of our small room....'Tell us then, Ted cos we ain't got a clue why there's a barra' in our 'ouse at this time of night' said Ma in her quiet way... "

So, somehow, her father had, apparently, managed to get a costermonger barrow into the family home in Bermondsey.

[Observer]

Hi David

If memory serves me well there is a print depicting the shed as it was at the time. Although as I'm thinking I can't remember if it was a print of the actual shed in Dorset street or something similar. I could be wrong but I think it carried the caption somewhere along the lines of "The shed in which the murdered woman Eddowes was said to sleep"

[Robert St Devil]

David, Steve, Pierre, MWR, GUT, Richardh, and all.

What do you think of the suggestion that...

The line on the Goad map is not indicating any doors on any of the no 26 floors?

Instead, it is indicating where the house changes from a 3- story house to a 2-story house. For my evidence: 1) the shape of the house (pg. 19); 2) no. 26 , at a quick glance, would be in an exclusive category On the map since it would be the only house with its interior 'mapped out'

[Wickerman]

Back on track !

This is a new layout based on the drawings of Stephen Thomas (hope you don't mind me using them?).

Please provide feedback.

Q: Should the shed have stairs to the 1st floor landing?
Q: I can't fathom that spiral staircase in the centre of Stephen's drawing. Can this be further explained to me?
Q: the stairs on the 1st floor and the stairs on the 2nd floor - are they going in the right direction?
Q: didn't include the 'original staircase' which leads from the shed up to the landing because I couldn't get it to fit within the configuration I have at the moment. This needs explaining please.

I may have messed up big time with the stairs because the drawings configuration confused me. Can you put some direction arrows in the drawings?

Hi Richard.

The suggestions you have been given create more questions.
There is no need for a false wall behind Kelly's room with its own staircase, that room 19 opened out to the landing that was 9ft wide.
So what is the purpose of adding this alternate staircase?

It appears "Prater's door" now accesses the room above No.13, which was not Prater's room - that's another problem.

[Robert St Devil]

You too, Wickerman. My suggestion.

[Wickerman]

- Room 19 is no more than 10ft deep (ref. Goads scale).
- Stairs within rm 19 to be erased.
- Stairwell/Storeroom section is 9ft deep (ref. Kate Marshall case).
- Praters door needs to be located within this 9ft section, but on the ground floor.

[Robert St Devil]

Hello richardh.
I am a big fan of your work. So it is with a heavy heart i must say that i believe its all wrong. On this I hope i am truly wrong because you do great work and id hate to think youd have to start from scratch.

My evidence: in the original design of the house, the bottom floor was an open area and there was no #13. So, there was no door leading into marys room; that was added later. The absence of marys door being the case, in your design, you now have a staircase bisecting an open area; and the back 'room' is now completely inaccessible other that thru the windows.

Stairway door: i wonder if the stairs were always accessible thru that door, or was it added later on (like marys) to convert the house into a lodging residence. I would think you would need to design the stairs to be in more harmony with the house with the parameters that its possible both of those side doors never existed.

[Wickerman]

You too, Wickerman. My suggestion.

Did you read this post Robert?

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=364062&postcount=187

[Robert St Devil]

My bad, Wick. I agree with your suggestion entirely. I understand it better now.

[Wickerman]

Hi Robert.

The thing about rm 13 is, we don't know if it was an addition, or part of the original design. It looks like an addition from the back.

Traditionally, the parlour of a terrace house was at the back, so if rm 13 was not original, then where was the parlour for No.26 Dorset St.?

Kelly's room was described as a parlour.

[GUT]

Hi Robert.

The thing about rm 13 is, we don't know if it was an addition, or part of the original design. It looks like an addition from the back.

Traditionally, the parlour of a terrace house was at the back, so if rm 13 was not original, then where was the parlour for No.26 Dorset St.?

Kelly's room was described as a parlour.

But was it originally built as a terrace house???

[Wickerman]

But was it originally built as a terrace house???

The firewalls in the plan would suggest so.