Suggestion

[Robert St Devil]

Hello Elamarna.
I havent received much response from the board on this:

Do you see a knob or "ball shaped" thing in the upper left corner? I have been wondering if the vertical crack of liggt is light that shining thru the broken pane window. The crack of light you see at the edge of the blinds when they are pulled shut.

[Elamarna]

Yes see what you mean.

Indeed just to the right of this object there appears to be a vertical line, could this be a crease in a curtain? again if you work your way across that panel there is another line which could be a fold.crease.
The lower line Pierre interprets as a hinge could be the bottom of a window, and would explain why the strip does not continue in lower part of image.

If that is in fact the door (where the object is) i assume the latch is obscured. by items on the table.

This I think has as much viability at Pierre's interpretation of the picture.

Again, with out the plate to inspect it is difficult to pass any real judgement.
regards

steve

[RockySullivan]

If number 26 was actually used for costermongers barrows, I would suggest a connection to the barrow making at dutfield yard and their loft

[Michael W Richards]

Ive been amazed at how much discussion has been focused on something that was dealt with many, many posts ago. Pierres insistence that the partition wall had a door that could be opened isn't viable, there is no framing on that door for one, so, no way to mount to swing in or out, and it has the faded numbers 26 on it, which indicates as the press stated that it was originally the street facing door...or the shed at the time. Marys room was 10 x 10 also.

The door was used as material for a partition wall, the doorway that Pierres speaking of connected the original house salon....which became Marys room..to the hallway that had the rising staircase and the exit door inside the passage. The salon wouldn't have had a door, like almost any Victorian design..it was a salon for use by the house resident or residents.

[David Orsam]

Yes, I know. So I think it is unlikely.

Goodness, so it seems you agree with my #170 in which I said:

"If we are even bolder, we could hypothesize that you are talking nonsense".

We are making progress.

[David Orsam]

Then he moved the table and the bed wih the dead body on it to barricade the entrance door before performing the mutilations.

It is worth repeating that there is no evidence for the entrance door being barricaded - in fact, the evidence is very clear that it was not - nor any reason to think it might have been.

[MysterySinger]

Here is a question for you regarding the interior "door", whether functional or not doesn't matter here - do you think it was quite central on the partition wall or on the right as you view (e.g. fixed to the interior wall at the alley/court end)>

I had assumed that MJK's bed was in a corner on photo 1 - side against the partition, bed head against a wall. Now I'm not sure at all. Since the far post of the bed head is level almost with the door in the partition, the bottom of the bed is away from the wall (as Pierre suggests) and the bed is at an angle.

In fact exactly as suggested in MJK3. For this supposition, it also doesn't matter who moved the bed into that position (Police or JTR for example). It also chimes with this..

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/room-13-millers-court.html

and would indicate that what is in the photo, behind the bed head is still partitioning - originally something like this some time before? For partitioning you could read cladding since this was, presumably, a load bearing wall.

[David Orsam]

The coroner asked Prater if she had heard any beds or tables beeing pulled around.

For someone claiming to approach this subject in a scientific way, your comment here is remarkably unscientific because you have ignored the obvious, and indeed the actual, explanation.

As Dr Phillips testified, when the entrance door was opened, it knocked against a table. Doors do not normally knock against tables when opened. The obvious inference was that someone - presumably the killer - had moved some of the furniture around inside the room. THAT is why the coroner asked Prater if she had heard any of the furniture being moved around.

Your suggestion that the coroner was given secret information about the layout of the furniture which he withheld from his jury and allowed Dr Phillips and Inspector Abberline to conspire to perjure themselves in the witness box by giving false evidence at his inquest, thus deliberately misleading his jury, is completely and utterly ludicrous.

[Elamarna]

Since the far post of the bed head is level almost with the door in the partition, the bottom of the bed is away from the wall (as Pierre suggests) and the bed is at an angle.

l.

Hi MysterySinger,
how do you judge that the bottom of the bed is away from the wall?
I see nothing in any of the various copies of MJK1 which show this

[D.B.Wagstaff]

The winners write history, they decide what we must think and in the end we loose our own capacity of free thinking.

Regards Pierre[/QUOTE]

Who exactly was the "winner" that wrote the "history" here? It looks to me like the only person who "won" was Jack (not getting caught) and he certainly had nothing to do with the police reports, the photographer's vantage point, or the coroner's inquest.

The capacity to think freely is not doomed in the end as long as the individual reserves it for themselves. Free thinking is not necessarily defined by taking a particular point of view - conventional or non-conventional.

[Michael W Richards]

The door used to create the partition wall is on the r/h side of the photo. The head of the bed was almost against the exterior wall that separated the room from the courtyard, and the bed is a few inches from the partition wall on the right. There are no photos from the foot of the bed to review, but there may well have been some taken. Some of the original plates were marked with a numerical reference, and on one I recall it was one of a group of six taken....I believe the notation was 2 of 6.

The shot across Marys empty midsection may have been taken with a remote shutter, the camera may have been placed on the bedding that is stuffed down between the bed and the partition wall, by the lower half of the bed, and activated by using a remote shutter out of view, like a squeeze bulb. Alternatively it could have been placed there and activated with a hand operated shutter with the photographer placing the camera and ducking down on the left side of the bed out of frame. There was no room between the bed and that wall to have a photographer stand or crouch there.

What we can say regarding some of what is being discussed is that there was no functional door between Marys room and the staircase up, and that there were more photos taken than we have been given the opportunity to view.

[Mayerling]

I must have missed something - if Mary Kelly was in the habit of inviting her "johns" (or in this case "jacks") into her room for business purposes, why would she be moving furniture around to bar doors of entrance or egress to the room?

As for the fact that the "winners" always write the histories we get at the end, first much of what we consider written history (paper or papyrus manuscripts) have to survive more than man made disasters (burnings of books, war bombings). They also have to survive fires, volcanic eruptions, floods, shipwrecks, and other disasters, but occasionally something does turn up showing a fragment of what we lost due to time. Secondly, liars do sometimes manage to create their legends that briefly are absorbed by a willing local populace. The recent assault on Woodrow Wilson's reputation (somewhat deserved) for his anti-Black racism, includes his five volume history of the United States which included a respecting nod towards the usefulness of the Ku Klux Klan in keeping down the former slaves in the South. That is now believed by only fanatical white supremacists. The so-called "stab-in-the-back" theory of the defeat of Wilhelmine Germany in 1918 was pushed in "Mein Kampf" by Hitler, and "The Myth of the 20th Century" by Hitler's "philosopher of Nazism", "Dr." Alfred Rosenberg. Most people no longer believe them and their views on how Jews betrayed Germany, or how the Slavs and Jews and Gypsies were racially inferior types. Only the far-right fanatics do.

Somehow I keep thinking that we may be in for the creation of "The Myth of 1888" in the future.

Jeff

[IchabodCrane]

It is worth repeating that there is no evidence for the entrance door being barricaded - in fact, the evidence is very clear that it was not - nor any reason to think it might have been.

Could not agree more. The whole premise (suggestion) of this thread is absurd, and the fact that it's being debated for so long shows we all have either too much time on our hands, or there seem to be too few other subjects to have a meaningful discussion about.

[Michael W Richards]

I must have missed something - if Mary Kelly was in the habit of inviting her "johns" (or in this case "jacks") into her room for business purposes, why would she be moving furniture around to bar doors of entrance or egress to the room?

As for the fact that the "winners" always write the histories we get at the end, first much of what we consider written history (paper or papyrus manuscripts) have to survive more than man made disasters (burnings of books, war bombings). They also have to survive fires, volcanic eruptions, floods, shipwrecks, and other disasters, but occasionally something does turn up showing a fragment of what we lost due to time. Secondly, liars do sometimes manage to create their legends that briefly are absorbed by a willing local populace. The recent assault on Woodrow Wilson's reputation (somewhat deserved) for his anti-Black racism, includes his five volume history of the United States which included a respecting nod towards the usefulness of the Ku Klux Klan in keeping down the former slaves in the South. That is now believed by only fanatical white supremacists. The so-called "stab-in-the-back" theory of the defeat of Wilhelmine Germany in 1918 was pushed in "Mein Kampf" by Hitler, and "The Myth of the 20th Century" by Hitler's "philosopher of Nazism", "Dr." Alfred Rosenberg. Most people no longer believe them and their views on how Jews betrayed Germany, or how the Slavs and Jews and Gypsies were racially inferior types. Only the far-right fanatics do.

Somehow I keep thinking that we may be in for the creation of "The Myth of 1888" in the future.

Jeff

There is no record ever found that suggests Mary Kelly EVER brought clients into her room in Millers Court, so you've missed nothing.

All we know is that she was accompanied by someone to her room her last night and that she sang to him for over an hour.

[MysterySinger]

Michael - from that I take it you believe that Simon Wood's dissertation has no legs?

Does everyone else conclude that MJKs bed, in MJK1 is directly in the corner of the room, the head against a wall and the far side of the bed against the partition/cladding? I'm not 100% convinced now (though I was once!).

What bothers me a little, is why would they need partitioning across (the whole of) that wall if, as it seems, the wall was a load bearing one? Might be risky not having a proper wall there? Is there a really good photo that proves the opposite?