Oh, murder!

[GUT]

Following the murder of Martha Tabram, Francis Hewitt, the superintendent of the George Yard Buildings, and his wife, told a reporter for the East London Observer (as published on 18 August 1888):

'the district round here is rather rough, and cries of 'Murder' are of frequent, if not nightly, occurrence in the district.'

Thus corroborating the evidence of Elizabeth Prater some three months later.

Just why I've never understood the issue.

It is, in my opinion, clear that it wasn't unusual for a cry of murder to be hears in Whitechapel

[GUT]

Given Kelly's French pretensions, it might even have been "Ô merde!".

Just kidding.

Actually, why couldn't it have been????

[Sam Flynn]

But a time "not incongruent with the possible time of Kelly's death" is effectively the entire night.

As opposed to a night on which a murder did not occur in the immediate vicinity of said cry? Doubtful.

Prater and Lewis might have heard Kelly being murdered but then again they might not.

I agree, but it's by no means as 50:50 as one might suppose, if one took the view that "such cries were often heard in the neighbourhood" to apply in general terms. The "neighbourhood" is one thing, but a cry of "Murder!" emanating from Miller's Court itself (even the deceased's room), on the night of a murder, is quite another.

[Simon Wood]

Like the old joke about the Irishman in front of a firing squad.

[Joshua Rogan]

Not in my opinion Abby because Kelly was hardly likely to have been hoping to attract a passing police officer in Millers Court. The way I read the Star story is that people had to shout "murder" long and hard to attract the attention of a constable if there was a fight but that was in the context of a fight in a lodging house, if you look at the whole story. I would still have expected an instinctive reaction of a woman being attacked by a man with a knife to be a scream (of help).

There is a school of thought that says, if you really wanted to attract people's attention (and had sufficient presence of mind), you should shout "Fire!".

[David Orsam]

I'd agree that a cry of murder in the general neighbourhood on any old night is one thing, but the "Miller's Court Cry" might be quite another. In this case, the cry apparently emanated in the direction of Kelly's room, at a time not incongruent with the possible time of Kelly's death. These factors may elevate the significance of the "Miller's Court Cry" above those cries of a less nefarious nature.

But a time "not incongruent with the possible time of Kelly's death" is effectively the entire night.

Yes, according to Sarah Lewis in her oral testimony, the cry "seemed" to come from the direction of Kelly's room but that was said after knowing that Kelly had been murdered in that room. So it was easy for her to say this. I happen think it's impossible to pinpoint where such sounds are coming from (as humans are not bats). Prater who was right above Kelly's room could only say it was "close by". In her written statement, Lewis herself only said it "seemed to be not far away". Did Lewis actually think it had come from Kelly's room at the time she heard it? Almost certainly not; as a non-resident she probably didn't even know where Kelly's room was.

So I disagree that there are any factors which elevate the significance of the cry above all the other cries that were regularly heard at night in that neighbourhood.

Prater and Lewis might have heard Kelly being murdered but then again they might not.

[Abby Normal]

No, I don't lean towards a daylight morning murder at all. In the context of a cry of murder being a frequent occurrence, what I recognise is how easy it is to wake up having heard a cry of murder (which was ignored because it sounded like all the other cries) then learn there was a murder during the night and connect the two events which may not in fact be connected. It's a very common human reaction. My views are wholly unconnected to any thoughts about the time of Kelly's murder, just to question whether it was necessarily at that particular time.

got it thanks!

[David Orsam]

Which mitigates the fact that Prater took no particular notice on hearing the cry, but it doesn't mean that she was right to dismiss it.

That I don't follow at all Sam I'm afraid. Are you suggesting that Prater should have got out of bed and investigated every single (frequent) cry of murder she heard in the night?

[David Orsam]

thanks David
Ive noticed you seem to lean toward a daylight morning murder when it comes to all things Kelly.

Whats up? you got something up your sleeve??

No, I don't lean towards a daylight morning murder at all. In the context of a cry of murder being a frequent occurrence, what I recognise is how easy it is to wake up having heard a cry of murder (which was ignored because it sounded like all the other cries) then learn there was a murder during the night and connect the two events which may not in fact be connected. It's a very common human reaction. My views are wholly unconnected to any thoughts about the time of Kelly's murder, just to question whether it was necessarily at that particular time.

[Sam Flynn]

What I posted was corroborating evidence that the cry of murder was a frequent one in the neighbourhood of Whitechapel, as Prater said

Which mitigates the fact that Prater took no particular notice on hearing the cry, but it doesn't mean that she was right to dismiss it.

thus reducing the probability that the one heard in the early hours of 9 November by residents around Millers Court had anything to do with Kelly's murder.

I'd agree that a cry of murder in the general neighbourhood on any old night is one thing, but the "Miller's Court Cry" might be quite another. In this case, the cry apparently emanated in the direction of Kelly's room, at a time not incongruent with the possible time of Kelly's death. These factors may elevate the significance of the "Miller's Court Cry" above those cries of a less nefarious nature.

[Abby Normal]

Not in my opinion Abby because Kelly was hardly likely to have been hoping to attract a passing police officer in Millers Court. The way I read the Star story is that people had to shout "murder" long and hard to attract the attention of a constable if there was a fight but that was in the context of a fight in a lodging house, if you look at the whole story. I would still have expected an instinctive reaction of a woman being attacked by a man with a knife to be a scream (of help).

thanks David
Ive noticed you seem to lean toward a daylight morning murder when it comes to all things Kelly.

Whats up? you got something up your sleeve??

[David Orsam]

Hi David
yes it does. but dosnt Joshuas find bump it back up a bit since it was probably common knowledge to people of whitechapel that if your in fear of your life to yell Murder? especially if your indoors?

Not in my opinion Abby because Kelly was hardly likely to have been hoping to attract a passing police officer in Millers Court. The way I read the Star story is that people had to shout "murder" long and hard to attract the attention of a constable if there was a fight but that was in the context of a fight in a lodging house, if you look at the whole story. I would still have expected an instinctive reaction of a woman being attacked by a man with a knife to be a scream (of help).

[Simon Wood]

Is it being suggested that, as the cry of murder was so frequent in the neighbourhood of Whitechapel, a policeman patrolling Millers Court—as postulated by Coroner Macdonald—might not have heeded it?

[Abby Normal]

Given Kelly's French pretensions, it might even have been "Ô merde!".

Just kidding.

or maybe she yelled "Lizzie". ; )

[Abby Normal]

My dear chap, your questions, which appear to be addressed to me, simply do not follow from what I have posted.

What I posted was corroborating evidence that the cry of murder was a frequent one in the neighbourhood of Whitechapel, as Prater said, thus reducing the probability that the one heard in the early hours of 9 November by residents around Millers Court had anything to do with Kelly's murder.

Hi David
yes it does. but dosnt Joshuas find bump it back up a bit since it was probably common knowledge to people of whitechapel that if your in fear of your life to yell Murder? especially if your indoors?