Oh, murder!

[Pierre]

Instead of adopting a patronising, know it all attitude, why the hell dont you just simply put forward what your premise is?

Your post puts forward 4 questions.

If you are so smart why the hell don't you answer your own questions?

No, you misunderstand. I am being neutral, not patronising or smart.

[barnflatwyngarde]

David,

if you would have answered the questions instead of avoiding them, you would have had to answer "no".

And that answer would have called for new questions, such as:

Prater and another witness heard the cry "Oh, murder!" on the night of the murder of Kelly. This was in the newspapers.

And still, no one stepped forward and said "I was the one who cryed "Oh, murder!".

If it was just a trivial cry on a night of a murder by Jack the Ripper, why did no one solve the problem, presented over several days in the newspapers, by stepping forward and explaining it?

If it was just a trivial cry on a night of a murder (thought to having been performed) by Jack the Ripper, why didnīt the police find anyone who claimed to be the source of the cry, if they didnīt (sources may be lost)?

If it was just a trivial cry on a night of a murder by Jack the Ripper, why didnīt Prater afterwards, when she learned about the murder, interpret the cry as originating from Kelly?

If it was just a trivial cry on a night of a murder by Jack the Ripper, how can anyone just assume - just because there may be no answers to the questions above - that the cry came from Mary Jane Kelly?

Pierre

Instead of adopting a patronising, know it all attitude, why the hell dont you just simply put forward what your premise is?

Your post puts forward 4 questions.

If you are so smart why the hell don't you answer your own questions?

[Pierre]

My dear chap, your questions, which appear to be addressed to me, simply do not follow from what I have posted.

What I posted was corroborating evidence that the cry of murder was a frequent one in the neighbourhood of Whitechapel, as Prater said, thus reducing the probability that the one heard in the early hours of 9 November by residents around Millers Court had anything to do with Kelly's murder.

David,

if you would have answered the questions instead of avoiding them, you would have had to answer "no".

And that answer would have called for new questions, such as:

Prater and another witness heard the cry "Oh, murder!" on the night of the murder of Kelly. This was in the newspapers.

And still, no one stepped forward and said "I was the one who cryed "Oh, murder!".

If it was just a trivial cry on a night of a murder by Jack the Ripper, why did no one solve the problem, presented over several days in the newspapers, by stepping forward and explaining it?

If it was just a trivial cry on a night of a murder (thought to having been performed) by Jack the Ripper, why didnīt the police find anyone who claimed to be the source of the cry, if they didnīt (sources may be lost)?

If it was just a trivial cry on a night of a murder by Jack the Ripper, why didnīt Prater afterwards, when she learned about the murder, interpret the cry as originating from Kelly?

If it was just a trivial cry on a night of a murder by Jack the Ripper, how can anyone just assume - just because there may be no answers to the questions above - that the cry came from Mary Jane Kelly?

Pierre

[Darryl Kenyon]

I suppose the term could have been used like, say "Oh Bugger", like my Gran used to say if something went wrong [not too sure on Victorian slang]. But would the police have not made esquires in the court to see if anybody uttered those words during the said period ?

[Sam Flynn]

I guess so, Gareth, although when I was a small boy I slept in a back room of the house and would often hear the grinding of train wheels which I supposed emanated from somewhere beyond the back garden. The sounds actually came from the goods and repair yard situated three streets from the front of the house.

Caveat auditor!

The good news is that we have another pair of ears here, those of Sarah Lewis, who provides some useful triangulation. Taken together, and assuming the one didn't crib from the other, both "ear-witnesses" would seem to pinpoint the source of the cry as Room 13.

[Robert]

I guess so, Gareth, although when I was a small boy I slept in a back room of the house and would often hear the grinding of train wheels which I supposed emanated from somewhere beyond the back garden. The sounds actually came from the goods and repair yard situated three streets from the front of the house.

[Harry D]

Didn't Prater initially claim that she heard a few cries of murder before changing her statement at the inquest?

[Sam Flynn]

Of course, the cry may have emanated from Dorset St itself, and then Lewis and Prater would have been the Court residents best placed to hear it.

Indeed, Robert. However, it's worth remembering that Prater heard the cry emanating "from the back of the lodging-house, where the windows look into the Court" (or words to that effect), which would mean that it didn't come from Dorset Street, but from a point of origin not far from Kelly's room, if not in it.

[Robert]

If there was a cry from some other part of the Court, then one would have expected that if the cry was heard at all, it would have been heard by someone who was nearer to the cry than the two people who were in greatest proximity to Kelly's room.

Of course, the cry may have emanated from Dorset St itself, and then Lewis and Prater would have been the Court residents best placed to hear it. I don't suppose the police managed to question everyone in Dorset St.

Ultimately, I think that the 'defensive' wounds, the position of the body immediately after death and the stab holes in the sheet make it quite likely that the cry was Kelly's.

[David Orsam]

That this particular cry seemed to emanate from the very room in which an 'orrible murder actually occurred on the selfsame night. That, to me, seems to distinguish it from other instances of general "street noise".

Yes, well, if you choose to ignore what I said in #132 then you will no doubt arrive at that conclusion.

[Sam Flynn]

Actually, why couldn't it have been [O merde!]????

Fair point. We've seen wackier suggestions, I daresay.

[Sam Flynn]

So what is it about that particular cry that distinguishes it from all the other cries on all the other nights?

That this particular cry seemed to emanate from the very room in which an 'orrible murder actually occurred on the selfsame night. That, to me, seems to distinguish it from other instances of general "street noise".

[David Orsam]

As opposed to a night on which a murder did not occur in the immediate vicinity of said cry? Doubtful.I agree, but it's by no means as 50:50 as one might suppose, if one took the view that "such cries were often heard in the neighbourhood" to apply in general terms. The "neighbourhood" is one thing, but a cry of "Murder!" emanating from Miller's Court itself (even the deceased's room), on the night of a murder, is quite another.

But surely the "neighbourhood" being referred to by Prater was Milers Court, or at least "close by" to her room in 26 Dorset Street, which is where the only reliable evidence places the cry on the night of the murder.

[David Orsam]

As opposed to a night on which a murder did not occur in the immediate vicinity of said cry?

Again I'm afraid don't follow the argument Sam. The evidence is that a cry of murder was a common occurrence. Therefore there was nothing special or unusual about a cry of murder occurring during the night of 9 November 1888. So what is it about that particular cry that distinguishes it from all the other cries on all the other nights? The answer seems to be nothing.

[DJA]

Oy! Morty!