Oh, murder!

[Abby Normal]

why do people think she was killed when not already in bed asleep/passed out?

[Sam Flynn]

why do people think she was killed when not already in bed asleep/passed out?

I guess the main difficulty is that this scenario requires that the killer got into the room on his own and snuck up on her. That's possible, of course, but needs more explaining than the more straightforward proposition that she brought a man home with her - we already know that she had done this, at least once, that night.

[Pierre]

I guess the main difficulty is that this scenario requires that the killer got into the room on his own and snuck up on her. That's possible, of course, but needs more explaining than the more straightforward proposition that she brought a man home with her - we already know that she had done this, at least once, that night.

So ripperology is a set of "straightforward propositions" made from lack of sources.

[Abby Normal]

I guess the main difficulty is that this scenario requires that the killer got into the room on his own and snuck up on her. That's possible, of course, but needs more explaining than the more straightforward proposition that she brought a man home with her - we already know that she had done this, at least once, that night.

well
if it was blotchy,and I think theres a good chance it was-he may have waited til she passed out before he attacked.

[Sam Flynn]

if it was blotchy,and I think theres a good chance it was-he may have waited til she passed out before he attacked.

I think Blotchy's potentially the killer, too. Having said that, if he stayed in the room, it's likely that Kelly passed out before 1:30, when the room was quiet and dark. Unless the cry of "Oh, murder!" is a red herring, I can't see Blotchy hanging around for three hours after she nodded off.

[Varqm]

My 2 cents.

There's more chance Kelly did not go out again because no noise/commotion (Kelly was drunk and noisy) was heard until "Oh murder".Sarah Lewis was awake at past three.With nothing else to go by,I believe the man,looking up the court,seen by Sarah Lewis at 2:30 am was trying to enter the court and waited for some time when he saw Sarah.His entry coincides with Oh murder.He must have known about the latch,probably an acquaintance/former client (would be less afraid if Kelly was awake in bed).

[Abby Normal]

I think Blotchy's potentially the killer, too. Having said that, if he stayed in the room, it's likely that Kelly passed out before 1:30, when the room was quiet and dark. Unless the cry of "Oh, murder!" is a red herring, I can't see Blotchy hanging around for three hours after she nodded off.

Hi Sam
I agree. I think if it was Blotchy he killed her some time around the last witness heard her singing-which I believe was 1-1:30 ish. in which case the oh murder is obviously a red herring.

If its not a red herring and it was marys desperate cry for help as shes being murdered then Hutch makes the next best suspect. He was waiting around for blotchy to leave, waits about until 3ish, leaves, comes back 4ish, blotchy has left and gains entry and kills her.

in either case mary could have been passed out, but more likely in the latter.

[Abby Normal]

My 2 cents.

There's more chance Kelly did not go out again because no noise/commotion (Kelly was drunk and noisy) was heard until "Oh murder".Sarah Lewis was awake at past three.With nothing else to go by,I believe the man,looking up the court,seen by Sarah Lewis at 2:30 am was trying to enter the court and waited for some time when he saw Sarah.His entry coincides with Oh murder.He must have known about the latch,probably an acquaintance/former client (would be less afraid if Kelly was awake in bed).

and that man would be hutch correct?

[Sam Flynn]

and that man would be hutch correct?

In this scenario, it's more likely to have been Fleming. He was known to ill-use Kelly, even after Kelly and Barnett were a known item, and quite some time after the Fleming/Kelly relationship had ended. Worse, Fleming was known to turn up at Miller's Court to rough Kelly up!

From this, it's reasonable to deduce that Fleming was jealous, possessive and obsessive, and we have evidence that he was later committed to an asylum. Fleming knew where Mary lived, and he had a record of being violent towards her.

If I had to bet on Fleming vs Hutch, I know where my money would be.

[Joshua Rogan]

My 2 cents.

There's more chance Kelly did not go out again because no noise/commotion (Kelly was drunk and noisy) was heard until "Oh murder".Sarah Lewis was awake at past three.With nothing else to go by,I believe the man,looking up the court,seen by Sarah Lewis at 2:30 am was trying to enter the court and waited for some time when he saw Sarah.His entry coincides with Oh murder.He must have known about the latch,probably an acquaintance/former client (would be less afraid if Kelly was awake in bed).

It's not quite true that nothing was heard before the scream - Sarah Lewis is reported as saying;
"There was only one scream. I did not take any notice, especially as a short time before there had been a row in the court."

So sometime between her arrival and her hearing the scream, there were at least two people awake and shouting nearby.

[Wickerman]

The fact that Mary had a room in her own name and lived primarily off the kindness of men and solicitation puts her in a class of her own Sam, few if any other street women had their own room, by themselves, in their name. Which allows for much greater privacy, hence, undressing for bed. Like the neatly piled clothing found in the room suggests.

Michael.
Arguing for a 'class within a class' is beside the point. Kelly was a low-class prostitute, living among the low-class, in low-class accommodations.
Kelly, like Prater, shared a room with a man. The fact Barnett left Kelly does not elevate Kelly into a higher social class.

Prater admitted she slept fully dressed.
"I went into my room about 1.30, and went to sleep directly in my clothes, as I had been having something. I slept very soundly."

Sarah Lewis claimed she dozed in a chair all night, she was visiting at the time so naturally, no bed for her.

Cox swears she never slept all night, yet she did not hear the scream that other witnesses commented on.

[Abby Normal]

In this scenario, it's more likely to have been Fleming. He was known to ill-use Kelly, even after Kelly and Barnett were a known item, and quite some time after the Fleming/Kelly relationship had ended. Worse, Fleming was known to turn up at Miller's Court to rough Kelly up!

From this, it's reasonable to deduce that Fleming was jealous, possessive and obsessive, and we have evidence that he was later committed to an asylum. Fleming knew where Mary lived, and he had a record of being violent towards her.

If I had to bet on Fleming vs Hutch, I know where my money would be.

Well there's some that say they were the same!

[c.d.]

For the life of me, I can't see why the first and immediate suspect for Mary's killer would not be the Whitechapel murderer. Why try to invent other suspects and assume just because someone has a grudge against her that they would be capable of doing what was done? We already have someone who has shown on more than one occasion that he was more than capable of such a sick act, the Whitechapel murderer.

c.d.

[c.d.]

I guess the main difficulty is that this scenario requires that the killer got into the room on his own and snuck up on her. That's possible, of course, but needs more explaining than the more straightforward proposition that she brought a man home with her - we already know that she had done this, at least once, that night.

Agreed. Why take the chance of sneaking into the room when you can be invited in?

c.d.

[Wickerman]

I think Blotchy's potentially the killer, too. Having said that, if he stayed in the room, it's likely that Kelly passed out before 1:30, when the room was quiet and dark. Unless the cry of "Oh, murder!" is a red herring, I can't see Blotchy hanging around for three hours after she nodded off.

I think it's likely that Dr. Bond had Blotchy in mind when he penned his estimated time of death for Kelly.
Hutchinson had not come forward when Bond wrote his letter to Warren.