Oh, murder!

[John G]

I suspect that he was compelled to get a move-on with it with the others purely due to the exposed locations and time-pressure. Under better circumstances, who's to say he wouldn't have let Annie/Kate live a minute or two longer - that's all we're talking about - in order to prolong his kicks?I doubt that would work if he were in there on the pretext of obtaining a sexual service. She'd have got pretty suspicious if he just stood there waiting for her to nod off.

But in respect of the other murders the actual assault was only delayed until a suitable location was reached, although as all of the locations were exposed it still implies a degree of recklessness.

In respect of Kelly, the amount of destruction wrought upon the body doesn't suggest to me a perpetrator who was in the mood to be restrained about anything. On the contrary, it's indicative of someone in the throes of an absolute frenzy.

[John G]

[QUOTE=Pierre;413403]

But then what would be the motive to commit such an horrific murder?/QUOTE]

To construct a scene of desecration to change things.

Can you elaborate?

[Sam Flynn]

On the contrary, it's indicative of someone in the throes of an absolute frenzy.

Possibly, but only when he gets going. Quite when he decided to "get going" is another matter entirely. Besides, as I said, it could easily have been a matter of only one or two minutes between entering the room and Kelly getting (partially) undressed; about the time it would have taken to walk from Church Passage to "Ripper's Corner" in Mitre Square.

[Abby Normal]

To me the cuts through the sheet may provide the answer of what happened.

They were made to one particular area, which would indicate that it was not just random peripheral damage to sheets being cut as a result of accident because the killer was being sloppy.

So why would the killer purposely cut through the sheet?

I think the most likely answer is because he used them to cover her face while she was asleep and cut through them to her neck to kill her.

If this was the case it could explain a few things:

She was asleep/passed out in bed when attacked.
She wasn't strangled into unconsciousness as a way to initially incapacitate her as she was already out.
The killer didn't want to either look at her face and or want her to see him as her killer.
Which would indicate a more personal relationship, they knew each other.
Would somewhat exonerate blotchy as she had already been with him and seen him.
Would seem to indicate someone after blotchy, someone who entered her room while she slept and after he left.
Would seem to point to hutch IMHO as he may have returned after his stalking behavior of waiting outside, possibly waiting for blotchy to leave.
Would probably allow a small amount of time for Mary to cry out before being killed as she may have awoken as she felt the sheets being put over her face.
This timing also jibes with the screams of murder heard around 4:00 am.
Would also point to the killer sneaking in, as she was asleep in bed, as opposed to being let in by Mary.
Also points to someone who knew her as they may have not only known that Barnett was out of the picture, but knew the broken window latch trick to get in.

So to me as indicating a specific suspect who knew her then would be:
Hutch
Bowyer
McCarthy
Blotchy
Barnett

I think there's probably a better than 50 50 chance it was one of these men.
With hutch and blotchy being the best bet.

[Sam Flynn]

I think the most likely answer is because he used them to cover her face while she was asleep and cut through them to her neck to kill her.

Why would he go to that trouble, and risk waking her as he drew the sheet up, when a quick slash to the throat, or stab through the neck, would have silenced her quickly enough?

Besides, wasn't the sheet under her body?

[Abby Normal]

Why would he go to that trouble, and risk waking her as he drew the sheet up, when a quick slash to the throat, or stab through the neck, would have silenced her quickly enough?

Besides, wasn't the sheet under her body?

Hi Sam
because she would have still woken up and seen him.

I don't know where the sheet ended up. but with the cuts all concentrated in one place and cleanly cut through, it seems to me he cut through it on purpose. and the only thing I can think of-- of why he would do that is because he used it to cover her face and then cut through them to her neck.

if you have any other ideas of why he would purposely cut her through the sheet please expound, because I cant think of any others.

[Sam Flynn]

if you have any other ideas of why he would purposely cut her through the sheet please expound, because I cant think of any others.

It's by no means certain that he purposely cut through the sheet, and it could have suffered "collateral damage" for all we know. It might be illuminating to know how many cuts the sheet sustained, but sadly we don't have that information.

(By the way, if the killer did purposely cut through the sheet, it needn't mean that it was he who purposely covered her face. In a futile gesture, Kelly could have tried to hide behind it herself.)

[Abby Normal]

It's by no means certain that he purposely cut through the sheet, and it could have suffered "collateral damage" for all we know. It might be illuminating to know how many cuts the sheet sustained, but sadly we don't have that information.

(By the way, if the killer did purposely cut through the sheet, it needn't mean that it was he who purposely covered her face. In a futile gesture, Kelly could have tried to hide behind it herself.)

both good points Sam.

Never thought of Kelly doing it herself-good idea.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Abby Normal;413437]

So why would the killer purposely cut through the sheet?

I think the most likely answer is because he used them to cover her face while she was asleep and cut through them to her neck to kill her.

Hi Abby,

Do you have a source for the killer cutting through the sheet?

Regards, Pierre

[Sam Flynn]

Do you have a source for the killer cutting through the sheet?

Dr Bond's report to Sir Robert Anderson of 10th November 1888: "In the Dorset Street case the corner of the sheet to the right of the woman's head was much cut and saturated with blood, indicating that the face may have been covered with the sheet at the time of the attack"

Although Bond doesn't explicitly state the killer cut through the sheet, his suggestion that Kelly's face may (note, "may") have been covered with the sheet during the attack implies that the killer had to cut through it.

That said, the fact that Kelly died of a deeply cut throat, and appears to have had defence wounds on her left hand and arm, begs the question of how the sheet managed to stay in place for any length of time.

[Michael W Richards]

Are you actually saying with a straight face that Mary was so annoyed at being woken up in the early hours that she screamed, or shouted "loudly" (per Lewis), the word "Murder" and then, by chance, was in fact murdered a little bit later? And you are somehow "satisfied" that this is what happened?

Its pretty clear that many cries out in that district, including ones that include the word "murder", had nothing to do with any murder. Elizabeth says " I took little notice" of the call, as calls like that happened frequently. If you want me to admit that by her using that wording and later getting murdered, that we have a situation that is beyond coincidental, I would disagree.

[John G]

Hi Sam
because she would have still woken up and seen him.

I don't know where the sheet ended up. but with the cuts all concentrated in one place and cleanly cut through, it seems to me he cut through it on purpose. and the only thing I can think of-- of why he would do that is because he used it to cover her face and then cut through them to her neck.

if you have any other ideas of why he would purposely cut her through the sheet please expound, because I cant think of any others.

Hi Abby,

Could he have used the sheet to shield himself from blood splatter?

[Fisherman]

Dr Bond's report to Sir Robert Anderson of 10th November 1888: "In the Dorset Street case the corner of the sheet to the right of the woman's head was much cut and saturated with blood, indicating that the face may have been covered with the sheet at the time of the attack"

Although Bond doesn't explicitly state the killer cut through the sheet, his suggestion that Kelly's face may (note, "may") have been covered with the sheet during the attack implies that the killer had to cut through it.

That said, the fact that Kelly died of a deeply cut throat, and appears to have had defence wounds on her left hand and arm, begs the question of how the sheet managed to stay in place for any length of time.

The sheet business is weird and fascinating. Personally, I donīt think that Kelly tried to hide under the sheet when the killer attacked - people try to fend off such attacks with their bare arms, more likely, and Kelly did have some pretty horrific wounds to her arms.

I agree that is seems the face was covered with the sheet as the killer cut her - otherwise, he attacked the sheet itself and shredded it, which is of course rather a ridiculous suggestion.

But if he did cover the face with the sheet as he cut, then he somehow managed to avoid cutting the eyes. Of course, he could have cut the lower face only with the sheet over it, uncovering the face as he cut more meticulously around the eyes - but then why use the sheet at all?

There is something very odd about the whole business, and I sense that we do not understand what happened and why to the full in this respect. It intrigues me much.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Could he have used the sheet to shield himself from blood splatter?

Yup.another great idea of why he may have covered her neck /face with the sheet. particularily relevant since if she wasn't already strangled to death, there would be more blood spray when he cut her neck.

[John G]

Possibly, but only when he gets going. Quite when he decided to "get going" is another matter entirely. Besides, as I said, it could easily have been a matter of only one or two minutes between entering the room and Kelly getting (partially) undressed; about the time it would have taken to walk from Church Passage to "Ripper's Corner" in Mitre Square.

Except she was found on the bed close to the partition, which suggests to me that she was in bed when attacked, rather than preparing for bed.