Oh, murder!

[Pcdunn]

Oh my dear boy, what an absolutely charming example but it doesn't work because a tiger is an animal and if the premise is that I eat animals then it's perfectly possible that I eat tigers, indeed they are rather tasty in a stew.

Let me put it another way for you my dear boy, if you are told that animals have escaped from the zoo then it's possible that the tigers are free isn't it?

My dear Oscar-- er, I mean, David-- what delightfully witty responses you have been writing to our friend Pierre. I love it when Ripperologists indulge in philosophical debate, and I will continue to look forward to your posts.

[John G]

Perhaps we're at cross-purposes, John. I don't think that Kelly was asleep, or that her killer waited for her to fall asleep. He may well have waited for the right moment to strike, but I believe that Kelly was fully conscious (albeit perhaps a bit tired and/or tipsy) when that moment came, and in the moments leading up to it.

Okay, fair enough Sam. However, it still seems very unlikely to me that the perpetrator, who appeared to attack the victim whilst in an absolute frenzy, would have calmly waited whilst Kelly undressed and got into bed. And presumably it would have been far from ideal to attack the victim whilst she was in an awkward position, i.e. in bed, awake and presumably facing her attacker.

[Abby Normal]

Perhaps we're at cross-purposes, John. I don't think that Kelly was asleep, or that her killer waited for her to fall asleep. He may well have waited for the right moment to strike, but I believe that Kelly was fully conscious (albeit perhaps a bit tired and/or tipsy) when that moment came, and in the moments leading up to it.

why don't you think she was asleep?

[Sam Flynn]

What I have difficulty with is the idea of a perpetrator delaying his assault until the victim fell asleep.

Perhaps we're at cross-purposes, John. I don't think that Kelly was asleep, or that her killer waited for her to fall asleep. He may well have waited for the right moment to strike, but I believe that Kelly was fully conscious (albeit perhaps a bit tired and/or tipsy) when that moment came, and in the moments leading up to it.

[John G]

Fair enough, but perhaps not all of them - the cuts on the forearms (specifically) could have been inflicted if she'd held her arms in the manner I described.

That aside, perhaps there's stronger evidence in support of defensive wounds in the others I mentioned. Why did he cut her right thumb? Why did he inflict cuts to the back of the same hand? These are hardly consistent with someone intending to destroy the body, but are entirely consistent with the victim trying to fend off a menacing blade.

Okay, but Kelly waking up during the assault would still be consistent with a perpetrator seeing Kelly asleep through the window and taking advantage of the situation. What I have difficulty with is the idea of a perpetrator delaying his assault until the victim fell asleep.

[Sam Flynn]

According to Dr Bond Kelly's arms had been mutilated, which I would submit is not consistent with defensive injuries, but may be consistent with a perpetrator intent on destroying the body.

Fair enough, but perhaps not all of them - the cuts on the forearms (specifically) could have been inflicted if she'd held her arms in the manner I described.

That aside, perhaps there's stronger evidence in support of defensive wounds in the others I mentioned. Why did he cut her right thumb? Why did he inflict cuts to the back of the same hand? These are hardly consistent with someone intending to destroy the body, but are entirely consistent with the victim trying to fend off a menacing blade.

[John G]

There was a cut of one inch on her right thumb, cuts to the back of her right hand, and some pretty vicious-looking jagged cuts to both her arms (not just her left, as I previously suggested). These latter, I'd suggest, would be congruent with her clasping her arms together to shield her face.Prater was in a drunken sleep, and furthermore her room was one floor above Kelly's, at the front of #26 Dorset Street - not directly above Kelly's, as was previously believed.I don't see what that has to do with the Kelly murder, John. We should focus on the evidence pertaining to her murder, not any other.

According to Dr Bond Kelly's arms had been mutilated, which I would submit is not consistent with defensive injuries, but may be consistent with a perpetrator intent on destroying the body.

As to my other point, I should, of course, have said murdered after the perpetrator waited for them to fall asleep; there are, of course, cases of victims being murdered whilst asleep: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...asleep&f=false

[Sam Flynn]

Well, they were fairly minor injuries as I understand.

There was a cut of one inch on her right thumb, cuts to the back of her right hand, and some pretty vicious-looking jagged cuts to both her arms (not just her left, as I previously suggested). These latter, I'd suggest, would be congruent with her clasping her arms together to shield her face.

And if there was a struggle, why did no one hear it?

Prater was in a drunken sleep, and furthermore her room was one floor above Kelly's, at the front of #26 Dorset Street - not directly above Kelly's, as was previously believed.

Moreover, are you aware of any other examples whereby a victim was murder whilst asleep?

I don't see what that has to do with the Kelly murder, John. We should focus on the evidence pertaining to her murder, not any other.

[John G]

There were cuts to Kelly's thumb, (the back of) her hand and (left?) forearm that suggest that she did try to fend off her attacker.

Well, they were fairly minor injuries as I understand. And if there was a struggle, why did no one hear it? Moreover, are you aware of any other examples whereby a victim was murder whilst asleep?

[Michael W Richards]

There are indicators on Marys exact position when her throat was cut, and it makes sense when you accept the obvious that she invited someone she knew into the room. After allowing the guest in, she went back to the bed, slid over closer to the partition, and lay on her side. Maybe in a spoon position.

Her killer waited until she fell asleep, on her side, then sat on the left hand side of the bed, reached across her with his left arm, and placed the tip of the knife at the right side of her throat, and pulled it back across, blood spurting onto the partition wall. She wakes immediately, cannot call for help, but with arms flailing she tries to fight off the man on her. This results in her ending up on her back again, the knife nicking her arms and hands as she flails about, then he either slashes her face repeatedly back and forth at this time, or he pins her down and waits until she looses consciousness. Once resistance is over, he begins his gruesome journey emptying her midsection, placing organs about her, and cutting off all the flesh from her right thigh and the inside of the left.

That scenario is in agreement with all the known physical evidence of that murderous act...and it tells us that they knew each other intimately, that he was left handed, and that Mary was perhaps the only known Canonical that wasn't unconscious when the throat cut happened. That likely also applies to Liz though.

[Sam Flynn]

But that type of scenario suggests a struggle, for which there's little evidence.

There were cuts to Kelly's thumb, (the back of) her hand and (left?) forearm that suggest that she did try to fend off her attacker.

[John G]

hi Fish
I'm thinking more along the lines he covered her face as he cut the neck, not necessarily as he cut the face, but that's possible too and also points to a personal connection.

Very good points Abby. And I also think there may have been a personal connection, i.e. based on the targeting of the face.

[John G]

There's not much difference between "in bed" and "on the bed", though - it's only a matter of a couple of feet, and Kelly was a comparatively tall woman. She could easily have covered the distance between the edge of the bed and the partition by cowering away from her killer, or his forcing her back on the bed.

I doubt that the position in which she was found bore much resemblance to her position when killed, anyway. Indeed, her head and neck seem to have ended up further away from the partition, relative to the axis of the body, than they should otherwise have been. I have no reason to doubt that she'd been killed closer to the partition, but that's not where her body ended up.

But that type of scenario suggests a struggle, for which there's little evidence.

[David Orsam]

Its pretty clear that many cries out in that district, including ones that include the word "murder", had nothing to do with any murder. Elizabeth says " I took little notice" of the call, as calls like that happened frequently. If you want me to admit that by her using that wording and later getting murdered, that we have a situation that is beyond coincidental, I would disagree.

If Mary Jane Kelly shouted out the word "murder" frequently you might have a point but there is absolutely nothing to suggest she did. Nor is there anything to suggest she ever shouted out the word "murder" simply because someone had knocked on her door in the middle of the night and she was annoyed at being woken up. So we would appear to have a rather unusual situation of her shouting out "murder" and then (at some later point in the same night) being murdered, the two incidents not being directly related. Yet this unusual scenario satisfies you for some unknown reason.

[Sam Flynn]

Except she was found on the bed close to the partition, which suggests to me that she was in bed when attacked, rather than preparing for bed.

There's not much difference between "in bed" and "on the bed", though - it's only a matter of a couple of feet, and Kelly was a comparatively tall woman. She could easily have covered the distance between the edge of the bed and the partition by cowering away from her killer, or his forcing her back on the bed.

I doubt that the position in which she was found bore much resemblance to her position when killed, anyway. Indeed, her head and neck seem to have ended up further away from the partition, relative to the axis of the body, than they should otherwise have been. I have no reason to doubt that she'd been killed closer to the partition, but that's not where her body ended up.