Why Mary had to die.

[Pierre]

Well, obviously, in his alter ego as the torso killer, he wasn't overly bothered about body parts being swiftly found in the Whitehall vaults. If it hadn't been for Smokey the terrier that victim's buried left leg and foot and later the left arm would have lain undiscovered.

Hi Rosella,

I don´t agree, since there were people in the vault every day except for sunday.

The leg and foot found by Smoker lay in a mound of earth.

Regards Pierre

[Rosella]

Well, obviously, in his alter ego as the torso killer, he wasn't overly bothered about body parts being swiftly found in the Whitehall vaults. If it hadn't been for Smokey the terrier that victim's buried left leg and foot and later the left arm would have lain undiscovered.

[Karl]

Hi,

According to my theory he wanted to commit the crimes outdoors to assure a fast discovery. He wanted to take a high risk because he was sure he could do that and get away.

When he killed and mutilated indoors, he took a high risk distributing the body parts. The most risky of the places he used was the one in the new Scotland Yard building.

Regards Pierre

Then why not kill the women in secret, and dump the bodies where they were sure to be found? And also: why kill MJK indoors rather than a more high risk place?

[Karl]

Hi,

According to my theory he wanted to commit the crimes outdoors to assure a fast discovery. He wanted to take a high risk because he was sure he could do that and get away.

When he killed and mutilated indoors, he took a high risk distributing the body parts. The most risky of the places he used was the one in the new Scotland Yard building.

Regards Pierre

Then why not kill the women in secret, and dump the bodies where they were sure to be found?

[Pierre]

I think that's what she'd normally do, yes. However, some clients might be willing to pay extra for a bit more privacy, and some girls might be prepared to accept that. It might well be that Mary accepted once too often.

Of course, that begs the question: with the previous killings, why didn't Jack the Ripper trawl the streets until he found someone willing to do business from their home? There are several possible explanations. He could have been too impatient to wait for the one woman who might agree to take him home, or it might be the opposite: perhaps he was calculating enough that he knew the risk of getting caught would skyrocket if he kept asking potential victims for that added bit of privacy. After all, each prostitute who turned him down would then be a witness: "You know, just before she was killed, there was this creep who offered to pay me extra if we could do it in my bed. What, you too? Perhaps we should tell the police?" Well, I'm just thinking out loud, here.

Hi,

According to my theory he wanted to commit the crimes outdoors to assure a fast discovery. He wanted to take a high risk because he was sure he could do that and get away.

When he killed and mutilated indoors, he took a high risk distributing the body parts. The most risky of the places he used was the one in the new Scotland Yard building.

Regards Pierre

[Karl]

Or she "serviced" most of them in the nearest alleyway, thus avoiding her own little sanctuary being sullied. Plus it meant that she could get through clients at a faster rate.

I think that's what she'd normally do, yes. However, some clients might be willing to pay extra for a bit more privacy, and some girls might be prepared to accept that. It might well be that Mary accepted once too often.

Of course, that begs the question: with the previous killings, why didn't Jack the Ripper trawl the streets until he found someone willing to do business from their home? There are several possible explanations. He could have been too impatient to wait for the one woman who might agree to take him home, or it might be the opposite: perhaps he was calculating enough that he knew the risk of getting caught would skyrocket if he kept asking potential victims for that added bit of privacy. After all, each prostitute who turned him down would then be a witness: "You know, just before she was killed, there was this creep who offered to pay me extra if we could do it in my bed. What, you too? Perhaps we should tell the police?" Well, I'm just thinking out loud, here.

[Ben]

When she found a client, she brought him inside. If she wanted another client afterwards, she'd go outside again to hook

Or she "serviced" most of them in the nearest alleyway, thus avoiding her own little sanctuary being sullied. Plus it meant that she could get through clients at a faster rate.

[Robert St Devil]

Yes, Pierre. That number of possibilities would suffice to consider it a medium high trafficsd area, but entails intimate knowledge over public knowledge. He has to be almost entirely certain that whoever knocks on her door will go the one step further AND enter her room, physically or visually, to make the fast discovery that he needs.

I am considering your post but I think #2 may be too specific. It is not TOM BOWYER who is collecting the rent. It s mCCARTHYs COURTS colllecting the rent with TOM BOWYER acting as their agent. This, I think, to be more accurate since it is the collection habits of McCaRTHYs business that he would need to know, not Tom Bowyer's.

I think MYSTERYSINGER addressed most of my thoughts(sort of!). A paramour makes sense bc suitors or clients tend to keep schedule.

[Karl]

4. A client/clients could have called at any time.

I don't think clients were so eager to get a lay that they knocked on the doors of prostitutes. If that were the common practice, how would the poor girl get any rest? And the opposite is also true: it pays to advertise, and you do that by being outside where people can see you. It is much more likely that Mary hooked on the streets, like everyone else. When she found a client, she brought him inside. If she wanted another client afterwards, she'd go outside again to hook. And that's that. Clients weren't able, much less allowed, to simply come barging in. So the likelihood of clients trying to come through that door would be very slim.

[MysterySinger]

The above should, of course, read that 2 is the only known fact (not 3 as I have put). Doh!

[MysterySinger]

Pierre you say
"Why would the murder scene have been considered a high-traffic or at least medium high traffic area on the 9th of November"?" and then show

1. Maria Harvey had slept there and she had left clothes there, so she would probably (!) have come to pick them up.
2. Thomas Bowyer obviously came to collect rent.
3. If Mary wanted to go to the Lord Mayor´s Show, friends should perhaps have called this morning.
4. A client/clients could have called at any time.

3 is the only known fact but Jack couldn't have predicted that someone would call to collect the rent - by your own methods "there was no evidence for that" maybe? That pre-supposes a knowledge by Jack of the routines of the folks in the area or that Mary owed such a lot of rent. There is also a problem with all your theoretical "medium high traffic area" events because you're arming Jack with knowledge that we cannot know he possessed. How could he know about Maria Harvey and the clothes? How could he know Mary was going to the Lord Mayor's Show and how could he have known that any clients ever visited her (in fact do we even know that)?

In that category WE could also add that Joe Barnett or Joe Fleming (James Evans) could have called in on her.

So what we DO know is that
1 Jack called on a victim in 13 Miller's Court (whether he met her outside or at the room itself) - he may not have known it to be Mary Jane Kelly at all, or cared for that matter.
2 Catherine Pickett knocked on Kelly's door at about 7:30 because she wanted to borrow a shawl and got no answer.
3 Thomas Bowyer called at 10:45 and discovered the body.

[Pierre]

The show started 12.30

Mary planned to go to the Lord Mayor's show which I believe started at ten. There was to be a free meal for the poorest. I would have thought there would be fewer people around, many not wishing to miss the free food and the spectacle and leaving early.

Best wishes
C4

According to the Pall Mall Gazette on the 9th the Lord Mayor´s Show left the Guildhall at 12.30.

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

Publicity is the movement of information with the effect of increasing public awareness of a subject. [Wikipedia]

Hello Pierre.
Yes. The use of the term "medium" is OK in these parameters. And since all it took was one person - TOM BOWYER - to discover her corpse, i could rationalize the use of the term "any traffic". The idea is speculative of Jack the Ripper's certainty that an otherwise private location (ie. bedroom) would become a public matter (ie. rent collection, visitation, etc.) if publicity is his MO.

My post to KARL on PAGE 7 elaborates more on the subject.

Hi Robert,

Trying to theorize a bit about your question here but I would like to start from the perspective of the murderer (without using my theory).

To be able to predict a fast discovery of the victim, i.e. at least before or at the same time as the Lord Mayor´s Show started, he killer must:

A) have had a plan for giving someone information about the murder
afterwards.
B) have been living in the area and knowing the routines
C) have been knowing people living in the area and knowing their routines
D) have been knowing something about people living in the area and taking
a chance

But, for:

A) No known data exists.
B) No known data exists.
C) No known data exists.
D) No known data exists.

So here we have to work with probabilities but in a qualitative way, that is, by arguments for or against this or that.

Trying to theorize from your question then:

"Why would the murder scene have been considered a high-traffic or at least medium high traffic area on the 9th of November"?"

1. Maria Harvey had slept there and she had left clothes there, so she would probably (!) have come to pick them up.
2. Thomas Bowyer obviously came to collect rent.
3. If Mary wanted to go to the Lord Mayor´s Show, friends should perhaps have called this morning.
4. A client/clients could have called at any time.

Can we define that as a "medium high traffic area"? Or not?

Regards Pierre

[Robert St Devil]

Publicity is the movement of information with the effect of increasing public awareness of a subject. [Wikipedia]

Hello Pierre.
Yes. The use of the term "medium" is OK in these parameters. And since all it took was one person - TOM BOWYER - to discover her corpse, i could rationalize the use of the term "any traffic". The idea is speculative of Jack the Ripper's certainty that an otherwise private location (ie. bedroom) would become a public matter (ie. rent collection, visitation, etc.) if publicity is his MO.

My post to KARL on PAGE 7 elaborates more on the subject.

[curious4]

No, I meant sore thumb, because Mayerling pointed to an aspect of the Agatha Christie story which stood out like a sore thumb. It was in reference to that.

Oops! Ok, that will teach me to read the thread properly! I was thinking of the Agatha Christie novel "By the pricking of my thumbs".

Best wishes
C4