When was the estimation of when Mary took her last meal of fish and potatoes?

[Ben]

Hi Ben
The A-Z page 261 in the entry on Kennedy says "G R Sims subsequently referred to the man seen by 'the Kennedy sisters' "

Thanks for the info, Pack.

Kennedy certainly mentioned that she encountered the man when in company with her sister, but I'm not aware of any evidence that Sims thought the sister was Sarah Lewis.

Regards,
Ben

[Abby Normal]

Thanks for the info, Pack.

Kennedy certainly mentioned that she encountered the man when in company with her sister, but I'm not aware of any evidence that Sims thought the sister was Sarah Lewis.

Regards,
Ben

Hi Ben
Forgive my ignorance but Who's this Kennedy woman and what's her relevance and provenance to Sarah Lewis and her testimony.

I've seen her mentioned before and for the life of me can't get past the idea that she's basically an apocryphal character in all this.Does she even exist?

Was she at the inquest? Does she make a police statement? Who the hell is she!?! LOL

[Simon Wood]

Hi Ben,

Mrs Kennedy was in the company of "her sister".

Sarah Lewis was in the company of "another female".

At 3.00 am, when Mrs Kennedy saw "the deceased" standing outside The Britannia with the man who had accosted her and her sister in Bethnal Green Road on 7th November, MJK had been in Room 13 with Mister Astrakhan for 45 minutes.

Regards,

Simon

[John G]

I believe Sarah Lewis was sometimes referred to as Sarah Kennedy. According to Sugden (2002) at 8:00pm on the 7th Sarah was walking with a female friend along Bethnal Green Road when they were accosted by a man, who was age around 40 and wearing an overcoat. He also carried a black bag. The man wanted one of the women to follow him, but they both refused. However, after initially going away he returned, promising to treat them if they agreed to accompany him into a narrow passage. Seriously alarmed, they again refused and he asked "what are you frightened of." He then undid his overcoat, reaching for something, at which point the women ran off.

Lewis referred to this incident at the inquest, stating that she saw the man again at about 2:30am on the Friday morning near the Britannia pub as she was going to Miller's Court; he was with a woman but wasn't wearing an overcoat, however, he did have the black bag with him. This is interesting because this is also the time she said she went to the Keylers and saw a man looking up the Court- it has of course been argued that this man was George Hutchinson- so the sighting of the suspicious character must have been just before she entered Miller's Court.

I would just note that, at the inquest, Lewis simply states she was "with a woman", when first encountering black bag man on the 7th.

In fact, the more I ponder on this the more I'm inclined to consider Black Bag man as a serious suspect!

[packers stem]

Hi Ben
Forgive my ignorance but Who's this Kennedy woman and what's her relevance and provenance to Sarah Lewis and her testimony.

I've seen her mentioned before and for the life of me can't get past the idea that she's basically an apocryphal character in all this.Does she even exist?

Was she at the inquest? Does she make a police statement? Who the hell is she!?! LOL

Hi Abby

The press statement of Mrs.Kennedy is here

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/illustrated_police_news/il881117.html

The times and sightings are very different from Lewis on the night

In fact there's lots of interesting reports ...i particularly like McCarthys 'i coudn't begin to describe,it was all too much' then he proceeds to describe Kellys injuries in pretty good detail ....This man had an awful lot to say and it varied day by day

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

The press statement of Mrs.Kennedy is here

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/illustrated_police_news/il881117.html

The times and sightings are very different from Lewis on the night

Thanks PS

I think she was the sister of "Fairy Fay". Haha.

Sounds like the usual garbled press nonsense to me.

[packers stem]

Thanks PS

I think she was the sister of "Fairy Fay". Haha.

Sounds like the usual garbled press nonsense to me.

Hi Abby
We can't totally discount a witness who wasn't called to the inquest surely...she wasn't the first,she may well have been the last though
Many valuable witnesses weren't anywhere near inquests...so if we don't have a police statement we only have a press report.May or may not be true,that's for us all to determine but as many on here don't even believe witnesses who did attend the inquest anyway.... lol
Furthermore ,if you discount Kennedy,believing she's really Sarah Lewis, it makes a complete mockery of the Lewis testimony as an unreliable witness does it not

[Wickerman]

I notice we have a speculation that Blotchy may have waited in Kelly's room "for the court to settle down".
Surely, we have to first establish that the court was busy, on a cold, damp, wet and rainy night, before we can suggest that Blotchy would have to wait for it to settle down?

What is there to suggest the court was busy while Blotchy was inside Kelly's room?

[lynn cates]

inquiries

Hello Packer.

"I'm pretty sure that someone would have remembered selling a pail of beer. . ."

Quite. And that is PRECISELY why the nearest pubs were inquired of. No luck.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

planned

Hello Belinda. Thanks.

Planned well in advance, then?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thinking

Hello Abby. Thanks.

Very well. But I wonder what "MJK" was thinking? Here's a bloke who is paying for a bit of ooh la la, and there he sits, clothed, whilst I sit and sing for an hour?

A bit unresponsive?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

descriptions

Hello Gwyneth.

"I have always thought of Mr Blotchy as the facilitator and Astrachan man as the killer."

And I have always marveled at how BOTH men fit the physical descriptions of, respectively, "Red" Jim McDermott and Frank Millen--both agents of Sir Ed Jenkinson the spy master.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello Packer.

"I'm pretty sure that someone would have remembered selling a pail of beer. . ."

Quite. And that is PRECISELY why the nearest pubs were inquired of. No luck.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Do you think that most of the witness testimony is a bit suspect? For example, no one remembers selling Blotchy the quart of ale that Cox says he was carrying, despite his distinctive complexion. Then we have Sarah Lewis who gives an account of a highly suspicious individual whom she accounted two days earlier-he was even carrying the archetypal black bag! Incredibly, she then sees him again just before she arrives at Miller's Court, still holding the same black bag. And then, as she enters Miller's Court, she sees another suspicious looking character looking up the Court. And, of course, we also have George Hutchinson and Astrachan Man.

What I also find interesting is that 13 years later we have the murder of Mary Ann Austin, attacked in her lodgings at 35 Dorset Street. And like some of the Whitechapel murders she had a knife thrust into her private parts; as well as an object forced into her anus. And once again there was a bunch of questionable-in fact, in this case highly questionable- witness statements.

[John G]

I probably should also have mentioned the questionable statements of Caroline Maxwell, Maurice Lewis and the mysterious Mrs Kennedy.

[Jon Guy]

selling Blotchy the quart of ale that Cox says he was carrying, despite his distinctive complexion. .

Hi John

Actually, the East End was awash with people with blotchy, ruddy and red faces. I posted a newspaper clipping a while back which described the people who were lining the streets in Whitechapel when one of the victim`s funeral cortege made it`s way through the streets.