When was the estimation of when Mary took her last meal of fish and potatoes?

[John G]

Why can't people accept that these murders were the work of one disturbed individual?

The difficulty is, Harry, which murders? I mean, would you include the rare murders, or vicious assaults of Tabram, Austin, Smith, Hames, Haynes, Horsnell, Austin, Mylett, Coles, McKenzie, Battersea Torso, Putney Torso, Whitehall Torso, Pinchin Street Torso, Tottenham Torso, Rainham Torso, Liz Jackson...?

Without doubt this was a highly unusual period for extremely violent and unusual murders, which suggests the possibility of coincidence, copycat, two killers working together, gang-related crimes or even government conspiracy (although in this regard Stephen Knight's theory is a bit improbable in my opinion!)

[Harry D]

Why can't people accept that these murders were the work of one disturbed individual?

[John G]

Hi
Kelly did not ask for a handkerchief, she simply ''said ''Oh I have lost my handkerchief''..there is a difference...
Regards Richard.

Hallo Richard,

Yes, I've always thought that her behaviour was somewhat coquettish, rather than indicative of someone wanting to blow their nose!

[richardnunweek]

Hi
Kelly did not ask for a handkerchief, she simply ''said ''Oh I have lost my handkerchief''..there is a difference...
Regards Richard.

[Rosella]

What fuel would Mary be using on her fire to bake or boil potatoes if she had no money for wood or coal?

A journalist who trawled the streets in drag at the height of the Ripper terror was soon called over by a policemen and taken to the local station. A very small thin man might be able to get away with impersonating a woman, I suppose. If you didn't look too closely. I guess a (male) low croaky voice could be explained away by a cold.

[John G]

Hello Harry.

"The woman was found in Mary Kelly's room, identified by Mary Kelly's on/off lover, and Mary Kelly was never seen alive again after the murder. Ergo, it was Mary Kelly in the bed."

But who was Mary Kelly? We have no trace of her before the murder.

Cheers.
LC

I also find it interesting that Sarah Lewis, potentially a crucial witness, didn't reside in the area but claimed to be visiting the Keylors. And my understanding is that they have never been positively identified either.

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

I hate the word conspiracy.

However:

1. There can be little doubt that some elements of the police and some associated with HM Government BELIEVED in some sort of Irish to do.

2. Some were also well aware about the dynamite plot from the year before and Frank Millen's role.

Cheers.
LC

Hullo Lynn,

I wonder also wonder about the possibility of a local "conspiracy" involving, say, William Crossingham, John McCarthy or/and Daniel Sullivan. In fact, there certainly seems to have been a major cover-up of the later Austin murder, and Sullivan appears to have been on the thick of it.

Interestingly, Sarah Lewis is quoted as saying she believed the cries of "oh murder" emanated Facebook on the direction of McCarthy's shop,which was next door to the Keylers.

[curious4]

Hi C4
I reckon it's a myth that way back people couldn't tell the difference between male and female if one wasn't wearing a dress...reminds me of 'bob' in the blackadder comedy, so I just can't imagine it I'm afraid..

I think Bob was the other way round.

[packers stem]

Hello Packers

No, a man dressed as a woman, shawl round face to hide whiskers?

Best wishes

C4

Hi C4
I reckon it's a myth that way back people couldn't tell the difference between male and female if one wasn't wearing a dress...reminds me of 'bob' in the blackadder comedy, so I just can't imagine it I'm afraid..

[curious4]

Hello Richard

Thank you. Good to have the reference :-).
Although I don't really think it was Mary she saw.
As for a cold, I think the handerchief was more of a neckerchief, worn round the neck as an ornament, much bigger than say a lady's hanky.

Strange how these neckerchiefs/hankerchiefs are a continual theme throughout the murders.

Best wishes
C4

[curious4]

Hello Packers

No, a man dressed as a woman, shawl round face to hide whiskers?

Best wishes

C4

[packers stem]

Hi,
There are two descriptions of the ''eyes looked queer''
One is a description which I read around 1973.which stated..''Her eyes looked queer, as if suffering from a heavy cold''
The other is from McCormacks book.''All muffled up, as in cold''...
The former quote, I have no idea where I saw it,,but saw it I did....
I wrote to Colin Wilson shortly after that quote, referring to Hutchinson's statement,in which Mary Kelly said ''Oh I have lost my handkerchief'' this was approx 2.15am, and I suggested that this could be reference to MJK,maybe having a cold...
With that in mind, and the medical reports of T.O.D. I suggested to Colin, that the two independent witnesses.ie,Hutchinson, and Mrs Maxwell, had made reference to possibly a cold,
Hutchinson hearing Kelly, ask for the assistance from a handkerchief,and Maxwell making reference to her looking like she had a cold.
I then suggested, that as both sightings were some 6 hours apart, and the T,O.D was in the middle..both statements ring true, giving the impression that she was alive in daylight hours.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard
If you believe both statements and the TOD what's the obvious conclusion? Personally, I don't go with Hutch but if I did the hanky stuff would be more to do with a previously arranged confirmation... Bit like a blind date...I'll be wearing a blue flower sort of thing... Rather than a cold and the real need for a hanky..I mean who asks someone for their hanky?

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
There are two descriptions of the ''eyes looked queer''
One is a description which I read around 1973.which stated..''Her eyes looked queer, as if suffering from a heavy cold''
The other is from McCormacks book.''All muffled up, as in cold''...
The former quote, I have no idea where I saw it,,but saw it I did....
I wrote to Colin Wilson shortly after that quote, referring to Hutchinson's statement,in which Mary Kelly said ''Oh I have lost my handkerchief'' this was approx 2.15am, and I suggested that this could be reference to MJK,maybe having a cold...
With that in mind, and the medical reports of T.O.D. I suggested to Colin, that the two independent witnesses.ie,Hutchinson, and Mrs Maxwell, had made reference to possibly a cold,
Hutchinson hearing Kelly, ask for the assistance from a handkerchief,and Maxwell making reference to her looking like she had a cold.
I then suggested, that as both sightings were some 6 hours apart, and the T,O.D was in the middle..both statements ring true, giving the impression that she was alive in daylight hours.
Regards Richard.

[packers stem]

Hello John. Thanks.

I hate the word conspiracy.

However:

1. There can be little doubt that some elements of the police and some associated with HM Government BELIEVED in some sort of Irish to do.

2. Some were also well aware about the dynamite plot from the year before and Frank Millen's role.

Cheers.
LC

Morning Lynn
Certainly fits...
Frank Millen...... FM

[packers stem]

Hello Packers

There is always the possibilty that Mary cooked her supper herself, baking her potato in the embers and grilling the fish on the toasting fork, having begged/purloined the ingredients from the market.

Perhaps you are unaware that one theory regarding Mrs M is that she saw the killer dressed in Mary's clothes. I have read somewhere here of a mention by Mrs M that Mary seemed to have a cold (wrapped up in the shawl) and that "her eyes looked strange". Possibly Mrs M filled in the gaps in the conversation and "Mary" didn't actually say much at all, merely groaning a little and pointing to the vomit. The killer (or helper) may well have vomited afterwards.

Best wishes
C4

Morning C4
You're suggesting the killer was a woman then? I've never gone with that.
As for the meal, it is of course possible that she cooked it herself, boiled some potatoes in the kettle,who knows,still think a street vendor is more likely tho and I really don't think she ate it at 6 or 7 in the morning. Just my thoughts on what's likely,probable and realistic I suppose..