Mary Jane Kelly finally named ..?

[Debra A]

Good lord, so she was. Nice discovery. That looks like an interesting story on its ow too.

There's an article about the cases in this Brewery History Journal

http://www.breweryhistory.com/journal/archive/130/Arsenic.pdf

Interestingly, written by a man named Peter Dyer.

[Debra A]

I forgot to add that when Mary Jane Dyer's son, John, was enrolled at school his parent's name was given as Mary Jane and his address given as Caroline St Ancoats, which was just off Potts St, as was Wharf Street where John Kelly and Elizabeth were living in 1881 according to Lyn Dyson.

The Mary Jane Dyer who died in 1901 aged 40, wife of Peter, bought her beer at The Black Mare, Cannel Street Ancoats.

[Amanda]

I forgot to add that when Mary Jane Dyer's son, John, was enrolled at school his parent's name was given as Mary Jane and his address given as Caroline St Ancoats, which was just off Potts St, as was Wharf Street where John Kelly and Elizabeth were living in 1881 according to Lyn Dyson.

The Mary Jane Dyer who died in 1901 aged 40, wife of Peter, bought her beer at The Black Mare, Cannel Street Ancoats.

Well done Debra, great piece of detective work

Amanda

[Harry D]

Do you think we'll ever uncover the real MJK, Debs?

[PaulB]

There's an article about the cases in this Brewery History Journal

http://www.breweryhistory.com/journal/archive/130/Arsenic.pdf

Interestingly, written by a man named Peter Dyer.

Wonderful. Can you imagine the scandal today - more than 90 dead!

[Debra A]

Well done Debra, great piece of detective work

Amanda

Thanks, Amanda.

It's weird because earlier today I was posting on the Whitehall torso thread about Home Office analyst, Thomas Stevenson, and poisonings and blow me down- the same guy is mentioned in this Ancoats beer poisoning case!

[Debra A]

Do you think we'll ever uncover the real MJK, Debs?

I'm not sure, Harry. Maybe we will find her when someone misses her from their family tree, whoever she was, but even then I think about the proposed Liverpool MJK and realise we probably won't even accept that!
I guess the closest anyone ever came to a contemporaneously proposed MJK candidate was Paul Begg with Abbi Kelly and that must have been a truly exciting time for research.

[Debra A]

Wonderful. Can you imagine the scandal today - more than 90 dead!

And it didn't put anyone off their beer for very long!

[Amanda]

Thanks, Amanda.

It's weird because earlier today I was posting on the Whitehall torso thread about Home Office analyst, Thomas Stevenson, and poisonings and blow me down- the same guy is mentioned in this Ancoats beer poisoning case!

Nothing quite like an intriguing coincidence to peak one's interest is there..

[Rosemary]

Catholic?

I'm not sure, Harry. Maybe we will find her when someone misses her from their family tree, whoever she was, but even then I think about the proposed Liverpool MJK and realise we probably won't even accept that!
I guess the closest anyone ever came to a contemporaneously proposed MJK candidate was Paul Begg with Abbi Kelly and that must have been a truly exciting time for research.

A very wonderful priest in south Louisiana went through all of the sacramental registers in every Catholic Church & courthouse records, indexed them, & published them in about 42 volumes. Since I did some of the research for him, I was allowed to look at the original records, which only diocesan archivists can do now. There are entries called 'marginalia' where the priest would sometimes write down information of a more intimate detail.

Are the Catholic Church records for the East End digital only, or are researchers allowed or read the original records, white gloves in hand? I ask because when a researcher has the original primary document, phonetic spellings (or misspellings become evident) & every other Catholic girl had the first name of Mary, Marie or Maria, as a baptismal name, but could be known by her middle name. Here it's Marie for girls, e.g., Marie Carmelite, who could be called Carmelite or Melite even on a marriage or death record, or Jean Baptiste Albert & known as Albert. Then if the priest has any comments regarding parentage or legitimacy, he puts the notes in the marginalia 'saucy mother' fille naturel de Jean Baptiste Albert Dugas & his servant, slave, neighbor, take your pick. Always fascinating reading, those priests did enjoy their gossip.

Just wondering whether MJK could have gone by another name or than baptismal.

[GUT]

Those spellings make it tough.

[Amanda]

Hi Rosemary,
In the case of MJK we may never know. People have been trying to trace her for years, through both original documents & digital records.
The two most obvious problems are, as you correctly surmise, that the first name Mary was common to many Catholic girls & also in this case that Kelly was about as common in Ireland as having potatoes for dinner.

The third issue we have is Mary Jane Kelly herself. It is very difficult to decide whether the stories she apparently told her lover were true or not.
Therefore we could be looking for a miner's daughter, who might have been born in Ireland, possibly lived in Wales, perhaps married a man named Davies, and may have spent some time living in Paris. Or not!

Amanda

[GUT]

Hi Rosemary,
In the case of MJK we may never know. People have been trying to trace her for years, through both original documents & digital records.
The two most obvious problems are, as you correctly surmise, that the first name Mary was common to many Catholic girls & also in this case that Kelly was about as common in Ireland as having potatoes for dinner.

The third issue we have is Mary Jane Kelly herself. It is very difficult to decide whether the stories she apparently told her lover were true or not.
Therefore we could be looking for a miner's daughter, who might have been born in Ireland, possibly lived in Wales, perhaps married a man named Davies, and may have spent some time living in Paris. Or not!

Amanda

And how accurate was Joe's telling.

I am a married man, I know my wife tells me many things that only half listen too.

Additionally we are both interested in researching our family history, but as much as we know of each other's family we both make mistakes at times that we would never make with our own family.

[Debra A]

A very wonderful priest in south Louisiana went through all of the sacramental registers in every Catholic Church & courthouse records, indexed them, & published them in about 42 volumes. Since I did some of the research for him, I was allowed to look at the original records, which only diocesan archivists can do now. There are entries called 'marginalia' where the priest would sometimes write down information of a more intimate detail.

Are the Catholic Church records for the East End digital only, or are researchers allowed or read the original records, white gloves in hand? I ask because when a researcher has the original primary document, phonetic spellings (or misspellings become evident) & every other Catholic girl had the first name of Mary, Marie or Maria, as a baptismal name, but could be known by her middle name. Here it's Marie for girls, e.g., Marie Carmelite, who could be called Carmelite or Melite even on a marriage or death record, or Jean Baptiste Albert & known as Albert. Then if the priest has any comments regarding parentage or legitimacy, he puts the notes in the marginalia 'saucy mother' fille naturel de Jean Baptiste Albert Dugas & his servant, slave, neighbor, take your pick. Always fascinating reading, those priests did enjoy their gossip.

Just wondering whether MJK could have gone by another name or than baptismal.

Hi Rosemary

I agree with most of what Amanda said in her reply.

The Irish Catholic records are one avenue that might turn something up in the future after full digitisation. At present it is difficult for a researcher to search the actual records without even having a clue as to which parish to start in.

The records for Irish Catholic baptism and marriages are slowly being digitised (these are usually high resolution images of the whole page front and back and any bits of paper attached so marginal notes would be totally visible in digitised records too.) but not all counties in Ireland have transcribed or digitised their Catholic Church records. Limerick records are thin on the ground whilst a large number of Dublin Catholic records have been digitised.

[Debra A]

Limerick records are thin on the ground whilst a large number of Dublin Catholic records have been digitised.

Just for interest-there were 15 Catholic baptisms in Dublin between 1855 and 1869 where the child was baptised with the full name 'Mary Jane Kelly'

One of those girls, born and baptised in 1855, had an address of 15 Dorset St and a father named John Kelly.
A couple of years back someone posted on casebook a letter sent to a newspaper after Eddowes murder that suggested Eddowes pawn ticket for Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset St was actually 6 Dorset St., Dublin. I checked the 1891 census for both 6 Upper and 6 Lower Dorset St., Dublin and there were Kellys living at both addresses!