the last one

[somerset]

Hullo all,

I hope I'm not hauling coals to Newcastle here, but looking over the murders I am unable to fully convince myself that MJ was a victim of our subject. Harry D has a poll and a very long thread on this point, but skimming through the posts I didn't find many answers, and often it seemed that we weren't talking about Mary or even the Ripper at all.

The canonical victims ranged from 5' to 5'2" and were aged 43 to 47. MJ was 5'7'' and 25 years old, as well as the only victim who was killed indoors and who could apparently be considered attractive. Now I'm new to the case and the boards, too, but it seems to me that the only tie Mary might have with the first four is being a heavy-drinking prostitute in the East End. Honestly, she might not have even had dark brown hair like the others did.

MJ was the only victim undressed and killed indoors, and those points go hand in hand, but was the privacy the sole reason behind the unmatched savageness of the crime? I don't suppose I need to open that file. Was Jack lucky killing her in the privacy of her own lodge room? Are her personal details other than occupation relevant to the victimology? Am I looking at this all wrong?

Any thoughts on these points are appreciated.


Cheers,
somerset

[GUT]

What happens if we go outside the C5.

am repeatedly puzzled by people who cling to the C5 but reject the other conclusions the author of the C5 comes to.

[Wickerman]

One of the best comparison's to the original Ripper series, is the later Yorkshire Ripper murders. Wicked Beyond Belief is the book you need to pick up. In there you will see not all his victims were identical in looks, nor age nor social background.
I suggest that expecting the Whitechapel murders to be a cookie-cutter type series is the wrong approach.

[somerset]

good points

I suppose I'm being a little particular here, folks - the whole thing just has a hauntingly different feel to me. Chapman and Eddowes had both been disembowelled as well, yet MJ's scene was worse to a disturbing degree. She was also killed quite a while after the others . . . I would not be very surprised if she was shown beyond reasonable doubt to be a victim of Jack's, so I'm always open to argument for this . . .

Does anyone think perhaps MJ's death was planned more hastily?

[Pcdunn]

Was her murder planned at all?

I suppose I'm being a little particular here, folks - the whole thing just has a hauntingly different feel to me. Chapman and Eddowes had both been disembowelled as well, yet MJ's scene was worse to a disturbing degree. She was also killed quite a while after the others . . . I would not be very surprised if she was shown beyond reasonable doubt to be a victim of Jack's, so I'm always open to argument for this . . .

Does anyone think perhaps MJ's death was planned more hastily?

Interesting points.
I have noticed many people think the C5 (Or MacNaughten Five) show an escalating amount of violence and savagery, with Kelly's murder showing the climax, if you will, of the killer's work, generally attributed to privacy and more time.
At the same time, I think I see what you mean by "planned more hastily", as things seem jumbled about, and not done methodically... Hmm... But, indeed, did Jack "plan" any of his killings?

There is no reason for planning, if we discount the Royal Conspiracy (as most do), and most serial killers choose victims randomly (unless they always attack blondes or tall brunettes or elderly ladies, etc., as some 20th century killers seem to), so other than being a prostitue, what pattern would Mary need to fit?

[John G]

One of the best comparison's to the original Ripper series, is the later Yorkshire Ripper murders. Wicked Beyond Belief is the book you need to pick up. In there you will see not all his victims were identical in looks, nor age nor social background.
I suggest that expecting the Whitechapel murders to be a cookie-cutter type series is the wrong approach.

Hi Wickerman,

Yes, this is an excellent account of the Yorkshire Ripper murders. Although Sutcliffe generally targeted street prostitutes, who he claimed to have a hatred of, his later victims were non-prostitutes attacked well away from red light districts. In fact, one of his earlier victims was a 14 year-old schoolgirl who be attacked in a rural area down a remote country last lane (she survived). Incredibly he was also identified by a male taxi driver who claimed Sutcliffe assaulted him with a hammer as early as 1967.

[Rosella]

I thought Kate Eddowes had auburn hair, not dark brown?
I do think that it was pure chance that Jack chanced upon Mary (or she upon him) and that she had a room she could take him to where he could indulge his fantasies. Jack didn't have a plan that night, IMO, unless an urgent need to kill and mutilate could be considered part of a coherent plan.

[Amanda]

Was she...

I thought Kate Eddowes had auburn hair, not dark brown?
I do think that it was pure chance that Jack chanced upon Mary (or she upon him) and that she had a room she could take him to where he could indulge his fantasies. Jack didn't have a plan that night, IMO, unless an urgent need to kill and mutilate could be considered part of a coherent plan.

Hi Rosella,
One big question here is did Mary take him to her room or was he perhaps taken there by somebody else?
Amanda

[GUT]

Hi Rosella,
One big question here is did Mary take him to her room or was he perhaps taken there by somebody else?
Amanda

Such as?

[Amanda]

Such as?

Morning Gut,

A pimp or 'minder' for example?

Amanda

[GUT]

Morning Gut,

A pimp or 'minder' for example?

Amanda

Evening Amanda [after all it is nearly 8:00 pm here]

OK but there is no evidence that she had either of those

[Amanda]

Hi Gut,

No evidence to the contrary either....

Amanda

[pinkmoon]

What about the locked door?

[Amanda]

The key..

Hi Pinkmoon,

A pimp would have a key wouldn't he?

Amanda

[pinkmoon]

Hi Pinkmoon,

A pimp would have a key wouldn't he?

Amanda

Most certainly .....like I said before people have forgotten about the locked door.