Did Mary know her killer?

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hi GM
Yes of course mary was a (some time)prostitute, but I have serious doubts also that she was actively solicitating that night. Other than Hutchs dubious claim, Mary was seen with one man that night-Blotchy. And the circumstances seem to point to her not necessarily in a prostitution relationship with him.

Shes acting like she knows him fairly well, comfortable enough to bring him back to her room, sing, make a fire, have a few drinks, hang out with him for a relatively long time. Not the behavior of a woman engaging in prostitution. And there is no evidence that she used her residence for prostitution-more like it was her safe haven; living there with Barnett, allowing friends to crash etc.

If she was solicitating that night, however, I would tend to think that Blotchy was someone she knew before, probably from being out in the pubs. This is at the height of the ripper scare, we have evidence that she was wary of this, so not sure if she would be bringing total strangers back.

I dismiss she was out serial prostituting that night, going after one man after another, with all the circs we know surrounding that night.

I give it 50/50 she was prostituting herself to Blotchy and if she was, then definitely not prostituting herself later. She had food and beer in her belly, a roof over her head, and money in her pocket for McCarthy in the morning.

Abby,
I can't really disagree with your well thought out hypothesis.

It baffles me that so many people seem to ignore primary source evidence (Mrs Cox statement re Blotchy) only to use contentious evidence (newspaper reports from across the UK) to bolster a particular suspect hypothesis.

Blotchy was seen entering Millers Court with Mary, and as such must be regarded as a prime suspect, if not the prime suspect.

If Blotchy was the killer, he may well have died or been committed shortly after the Millers Court murder.

Short of trawling the death registers or Asylum admissions for Whitechapel for the 6 month period after 9th November 1888, the identity of Blotchy will probably never be known.

It is unlikely that that there is any mileage in an author pitching a book to a publisher putting forward the premise that JTR was an anonymous short stout, shabbily dressed man with a blotchy face and a full carrotty moustache.

In conlusion I believe:

• That Mary went back to Millers Court With Blotchy.
• That she was murdered by Blotchy in Millers Court.
• That Hutchinson fabricated his story.

I believe these things because the evidence indicates it.

[Abby Normal]

Abby,
I can't really disagree with your well thought out hypothesis.

It baffles me that so many people seem to ignore primary source evidence (Mrs Cox statement re Blotchy) only to use contentious evidence (newspaper reports from across the UK) to bolster a particular suspect hypothesis.

Blotchy was seen entering Millers Court with Mary, and as such must be regarded as a prime suspect, if not the prime suspect.

If Blotchy was the killer, he may well have died or been committed shortly after the Millers Court murder.

Short of trawling the death registers or Asylum admissions for Whitechapel for the 6 month period after 9th November 1888, the identity of Blotchy will probably never be known.

It is unlikely that that there is any mileage in an author pitching a book to a publisher putting forward the premise that JTR was an anonymous short stout, shabbily dressed man with a blotchy face and a full carrotty moustache.

In conlusion I believe:

• That Mary went back to Millers Court With Blotchy.
• That she was murdered by Blotchy in Millers Court.
• That Hutchinson fabricated his story.

I believe these things because the evidence indicates it.

yup-you and me both!
Blotchy, to me, seems more likrly than the other viable suspects to be Mary's killer and JtR.

if he was, I think then that hutch was there that night, but probably just waiting for blotchy to leave . Later making up the story of his encounter with Mary and A Man to cash in somehow.

If Blotchy was not the killer, then I put hutch as close second.

[Batman]

Blotchy should have been the Prime Suspect.

[lynn cates]

Red Jim

Hello BFWG.

"It is unlikely that that there is any mileage in an author pitching a book to a publisher putting forward the premise that JTR was an anonymous short stout, shabbily dressed man with a blotchy face and a full carrotty moustache."

Well, there is already a book out that includes "Red" Jim McDermott as a suspect.

And his description is bang on with "Blotchy."

Cheers.
LC

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hello BFWG.

"It is unlikely that that there is any mileage in an author pitching a book to a publisher putting forward the premise that JTR was an anonymous short stout, shabbily dressed man with a blotchy face and a full carrotty moustache."

Well, there is already a book out that includes "Red" Jim McDermott as a suspect.

And his description is bang on with "Blotchy."

Cheers.
LC

Thanks for this Lynn.

The point I was making that JTR as a Blotchy “nobody" is not a flashy solution like the Royal connection, the drowned Barrister, the insane Jewish resident, etc, etc, etc.

I still think that some people are ignoring what are clearly important primary pieces of evidence to pursue a less credible "solution".

I know that McDermott was apparently a British agent with involvement in the Fenian movement, but I was unaware that he is mooted as a possible "Blotchy".

I will trawl through the forums to bring myself up to speed.

Thanks for the heads up.

[Abby Normal]

Blotchy should have been the Prime Suspect.

he probably would have been if hutch didn't eff it all up!

[barnflatwyngarde]

he probably would have been if hutch didn't eff it all up!

And if Abberline hadn't embraced Hutchinson's statement with "unseemly haste".

[Michael W Richards]

Blotchy should have been the Prime Suspect.

As is the case with every murder...the last person seen with the victim is automatically under suspicion. Like Sailor Man was in Kates case. And in the case of Liz Stride, without using the Inquest omitted Israel Schwartz's story, the man Liz is seen with by PC Smith. Browns sighting is clearly of the young couple others also noticed in the area at that time. Annies case is different because of Mrs Long and her remarks, but it would seem by the sounds and time given by Cadosche that the murder had already begun at the time Mrs Long says Annie was still out on the street. So we have no idea who to put in Annies, or Pollys company.

Cheers

[lynn cates]

pail

Hello BFWG. Thanks.

I wonder whether the search/suspicion against Blotchy ended when no pub could place his pail?

Cheers.
LC

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hello BFWG. Thanks.

I wonder whether the search/suspicion against Blotchy ended when no pub could place his pail?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,
My understanding is that the police could find no pub that could confirm that Mary had been in that night.

However she, and probably/possibly, Blotchy had clearly been drinking heavily, so the question is, where?

Blotchy's house*/local pub*/non-local pub*

*Delete where applicable.

[mklhawley]

Hello BFWG.

"It is unlikely that that there is any mileage in an author pitching a book to a publisher putting forward the premise that JTR was an anonymous short stout, shabbily dressed man with a blotchy face and a full carrotty moustache."

Well, there is already a book out that includes "Red" Jim McDermott as a suspect.

And his description is bang on with "Blotchy."

Cheers.
LC

So Lynn, was this book published before or after this:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4859

Mike

[Michael W Richards]

The thread question really has only three possible answers;

1. The killer broke in.
2. The killer entered with permission
3. The killer entered with the victim

There is no evidence that there was a forced entry before McCarthys display in the afternoon. The room was locked from the inside,.... the windows, and the spring latch was set at off. The issue of how the killer would enter and get to the bedside with Mary asleep facing the wall is also present, as is he issue of who called out from the court at 3:45am. All in all it is unlikely we have a case of break and enter that ends with silence, as heard by Prater and Lewis after the cry.

Which leaves 2 and 3, both of which indicate that Mary knew her killer.

I think permission is the winner myself, and that explains the startled "oh-murder" at her door as she shielded her eyes from the lamp light directly across the court from her door.

Cheers

[GregBaron]

I'll let myself out now...

I’m not sure it’s that cut and dried Michael.

Obviously the killer pulled the door shut and may have changed the latch on/off if he wanted, the condition of the door says nothing about how it was when he entered……..that is if we’re assuming Mary didn’t commit suicide…

I don’t know if you’ve ever witnessed a drunken stupor but people passed out from overindulging might sleep through an earthquake or monsoon without budging….I can easily see someone sneaking in at 4 a.m…

Since Blotchy was around at 1 a.m. he may have left at 2 or 3 after Mary passed out….

I don’t see how we can say with confidence that Mary knew and let in her killer. Blotchy may have stumbled off and Hutch or some other then let himself in…

Just sayin…


Greg

[RockySullivan]

The issue of how the killer would enter and get to the bedside with Mary asleep facing the wall is also present, as is he issue of who called out from the court at 3:45am. All in all it is unlikely we have a case of break and enter that ends with silence, as heard by Prater and Lewis after the cry.

Which leaves 2 and 3, both of which indicate that Mary knew her killer.

I think permission is the winner myself, and that explains the startled "oh-murder" at her door as she shielded her eyes from the lamp light directly across the court from her door.

Cheers

But according to Prater she heard screams of murder. As in two or three. No one answers the door screaming Murder unless they are.....being murdered.

As for Hutch, how could any detective not realize no one stands outside a prostitutes apartment out of curiosity. He's either a peeping tom, waiting to rob Astrakhan or stalking/waiting to kill Kelly. Any other reasons?

[Rosella]

Yes. Hutchinson knew Mary,lacked sixpence earlier so he couldn't hire her services. He waited hopefully outside Millers Court (he wasn't lurking outside her door) in case her client left and he could then go and see if he could get a freebie from her in her nice warm bed.