Unnamed beaten woman in The War Cry: Mary Kelly?

[MayBea]

I think you mean to write so that the murder would be noticed or was the quote as exactly as written?

That was a direct quote, word for word. "...a woman being beaten would make as much noise as one cut up, so that the murder would not be noticed."

There was lots of yelling and screaming in Millers Court and you wouldn't be able to tell if a woman's screams meant she was being beaten or was being murdered.

You would notice violence but not know how severe it was

[MayBea]

Thinking about it sounds strange that everything Barnett has said about Kelly seems to be a load of crap (seeing as no one has been able to substantiate what Barnett said). I don't think Kelly would make up info about her background...

The parts about Buki and Morgenstern have been substantiated so her immediate background is confirmed. Barnett must have relayed this information correctly.

It's the earlier background which is not proven or confirmed and it makes more sense, if they were lies, they came from Mary. That's why I think she may have lied about the circumstances of a fight.

Obviously, if it was her, she told the Slum Sister that Joe was her husband.

[MayBea]

On the other hand, the beaten woman said it was her husband and another woman who beat her, which is strange enough, because they wanted her to go drinking with them. How can this be and how does it fit with Mary and Joe?

Well, we already have Julia as part of a dust up with Joe opposing her presence and yet she is on the side of the Barnett's and drinks with Dan a week later. Therefore, if the beaten woman is Mary, as I believe, then she could well be telling the truth, or a semblance of it.

My question is whether there is any evidence of Julia being violent.

[Natasha]

Hi MayBae

The parts about Buki and Morgenstern have been substantiated so her immediate background is confirmed. Barnett must have relayed this information correctly.

It's the earlier background which is not proven or confirmed and it makes more sense, if they were lies, they came from Mary. That's why I think she may have lied about the circumstances of a fight.

Obviously, if it was her, she told the Slum Sister that Joe was her husband.

Ok some of it has, but I still think something is off

On the other hand, the beaten woman said it was her husband and another woman who beat her, which is strange enough, because they wanted her to go drinking with them. How can this be and how does it fit with Mary and Joe?

Well, we already have Julia as part of a dust up with Joe opposing her presence and yet she is on the side of the Barnett's and drinks with Dan a week later. Therefore, if the beaten woman is Mary, as I believe, then she could well be telling the truth, or a semblance of it.

My question is whether there is any evidence of Julia being violent.

I'm thinking that perhaps 'Julia' was the victim in Miller's Court, and that perhaps Mary was the lodger. Mary could have, alongside 'Danny', attacked Julia. We know that maybe Kelly wasn't the type of woman who would take a beating, and if that's true I doubt she would have just sat there and took it without hitting back, that is why I'm starting to believe that Kelly wasn't the woman who was attacked. So why sit there and take it if it was her?

I know people on here have tried to work out who 'Julia' was before (I don't think Julia Venturney was this Julia, because she was living with Harry Owen). Also I'm sure I read that this 'Julia' just seemed to vanish.

Also what do we know about 'Danny'? I know it's been mentioned that Joe Barnett used Danny as a nickname and that his brother was called Daniel. Also Dan, the brother, was seen with the deceased a few hours before she was killed, also he resided at the 'Victoria home' along with George Hutchinson, is that true? Who saw the brother with Kelly?

Maurice Lewis claimed to see Mary, Julia and Danny. Now as we know he gave a different description of Kelly to everyone else, so perhaps he was mistaken as to who 'Mary' was. This is another reason for making me think that the victim in Miller's Court was someone else, as well as Maxwell's account. He named Danny and Julia and said they lived together. Do we know if Daniel Barnett (the brother) was married?

Whoever it was who was attacked, seemed shook up enough to allow a worker from the Salvation Army to take her back to there place. Someone who was perhaps timid.

[MayBea]

H Also Dan, the brother, was seen with the deceased a few hours before she was killed, also he resided at the 'Victoria home' along with George Hutchinson, is that true? Who saw the brother with Kelly?

Dan is at the Victoria home in 1891. He is single. No record has been found of him marrying.

1891:
Charles William Mowl Victoria Home No 1
Commercial Street, Whitechapel
Lodger:
Daniel Barnett aged 44 born Whitechapel - Fish Porter

There is some speculation that Julia is the one Maxwell saw. She might have idolized Mary and pretended to be her.

I wonder if she even copied Mary's tendency to hair pulling as described by Dennis Barnett to Tom Cullen.

[RockySullivan]

I wouldn't be surprised if the ripper had assaulted someone at one of the murder sites previously and felt comfortable enough there because of that

[Hatchett]

Hi,

The idea that it was Julia that was killed and not Kelly, and the business about Barnett being married to someone else, and the both of them being unnaccountable for several years, is a very intruiging one. It certainly pulls together various issues that cannot be explained otherwise. Not least of them being the sighting by Maxwell.

What has also struck me as odd and too coincidential, is Eddowes calling herself Kelly.

Sometimes looking at this case it is as though there is a whole story in darkness, and we are just looking at the periphary at the edge, which even then is only lit up by gaslight.

Best wishes

[Natasha]

I wouldn't be surprised if the ripper had assaulted someone at one of the murder sites previously and felt comfortable enough there because of that

Hi Rocky

You have given me another idea.
If 'Julia' was indeed the one found murdered in Millers Court, and who was attacked by Kelly and 'Danny', then he may have been the ripper. Whoever 'Danny' was.

[Natasha]

Sometimes looking at this case it is as though there is a whole story in darkness, and we are just looking at the periphary at the edge, which even then is only lit up by gaslight.

Hi Hatchett

I agree. It's frustrating. A mystery within a mystery.

[Natasha]

Dan is at the Victoria home in 1891. He is single. No record has been found of him marrying.

1891:
Charles William Mowl Victoria Home No 1
Commercial Street, Whitechapel
Lodger:
Daniel Barnett aged 44 born Whitechapel - Fish Porter

There is some speculation that Julia is the one Maxwell saw. She might have idolized Mary and pretended to be her.

I wonder if she even copied Mary's tendency to hair pulling as described by Dennis Barnett to Tom Cullen.

Hi MayBea,

Thanks for the info.

We know that people didn't need to actually marry to be classed as 'married', so the fact that Daniel wasn't married doesn't really effect the idea.

What if Daniel was Hutchinson?

Maxwell: I think 'Julia' was who Maxwell saw. 'Julia' may have been pretending to be Mary so McCarthy didn't find out. I don't think he would be too happy to learn that perhaps the room was being sub-let.

We know that Maxwell didn't know Mary well so it's not impossible to think that perhaps it was easy for 'Julia' and Mary to get away with deception.

Do you think it was Mary who was attacked? What is your theory on all this? How do you think it all fits?

[MayBea]

I think it was most definitely Mary Jane Kelly.

Joe was out of work and out of money and wanted to go drinking. She didn't so he beat her up with help from the other woman.

This is what probably led to Joe leaving at the end of October. Mary kicked him out after another fight that caused the window to break.

[Natasha]

I think it was most definitely Mary Jane Kelly.

Joe was out of work and out of money and wanted to go drinking. She didn't so he beat her up with help from the other woman.

This is what probably led to Joe leaving at the end of October. Mary kicked him out after another fight that caused the window to break.

If it was Kelly, then why didn't she fight back?

He was in the habit of giving her money, why beat her when he knew she had no money? Why would he be so desperate for her to go drinking with him, if it wasn't money based?

If she did could throw Joe out, then how could she do that, but not defend herself against him if he attacked her for not going out drinking with him?

[MayBea]

Joe could've been drunk already so there would be no logic.

Mary could have fought back and that's when the other woman jumped in and maybe pulled her hair.

'Beaten' could mean she was 'given a beating' rather than having been 'beaten' in the fight as in 'losing' the fight.

If it wasn't Joe Barnett, then it could have been Joseph Fleming who was said to have treated her badly because she was living with Barnett.

http://www.casebook.org/ripper_media...morley/62.html

[MayBea]

Joe Barnett did give evidence at the inquest that Mary did not, or perhaps would not, drink with him.

[Coroner] Did you drink together ?
- No, sir. She was quite sober.
[Coroner] Was she, generally speaking, of sober habits ?
- When she was with me I found her of sober habits, but she has been drunk several times in my presence

Julia Venturney: "I have frequently seen the deceased the worse for drink; but when she was cross, Joe Barnett would go out and leave her to quarrel with herself." Scotsman, Nov. 13.