Mary Kelly, the Scouser?

[Pcdunn]

"twice frequenting" -- does anyone know what this refers to? I'm curious to know what or where Mary J. Kelly (aka Gilligan) was a frequenter.

[David Orsam]

"twice frequenting" -- does anyone know what this refers to? I'm curious to know what or where Mary J. Kelly (aka Gilligan) was a frequenter.

You'll need to find the actual charges for the exact location(s). The general charge in each case would have been something like, 'frequenting a public place with intent to commit a felony'.

[Pcdunn]

You'll need to find the actual charges for the exact location(s). The general charge in each case would have been something like, 'frequenting a public place with intent to commit a felony'.

Oh, so if you looked suspicious, they took you in beforeyou did anything! Preemptive policing, I guess.
Thank you for the information.

[Bridewell]

"twice frequenting" -- does anyone know what this refers to? I'm curious to know what or where Mary J. Kelly (aka Gilligan) was a frequenter.

The term "frequenting" originates with the Vagrancy Act 1824 which refers to a "suspected person or reputed thief loitering or frequenting a public place with intent to commit a felony - hence the terms "suss law" and "loitering with intent". If a person was committed of such an offence they were then classed as a "rogue and vagabond" and (if convicted again) an "incorrigible rogue".

[Fisherman]

The term "frequenting" originates with the Vagrancy Act 1824 which refers to a "suspected person or reputed thief loitering or frequenting a public place with intent to commit a felony - hence the terms "suss law" and "loitering with intent". If a person was committed of such an offence they were then classed as a "rogue and vagabond" and (if convicted again) an "incorrigible rogue".

"Loitering with intent"? So THAT´S what they got on Hutchinson!

[Bridewell]

Oh, so if you looked suspicious, they took you in beforeyou did anything! Preemptive policing, I guess.
Thank you for the information.

Pretty much. The police have powers,even now, to arrest on reasonable suspicion that a person is "about to commit" an arrestable offence.

[David Orsam]

The term "frequenting" originates with the Vagrancy Act 1824 which refers to a "suspected person or reputed thief loitering or frequenting a public place with intent to commit a felony - hence the terms "suss law" and "loitering with intent". If a person was committed of such an offence they were then classed as a "rogue and vagabond" and (if convicted again) an "incorrigible rogue".

The wording of the 1824 Act was (at s.4):

“every suspected person or reputed thief frequenting any river, canal, or navigable stream, dock, or basin, or any quay, wharf, or warehouse near or adjoining thereto, or any street, highway, or avenue leading thereto, or any place of public resort, or any avenue leading thereto, or any street, highway, or place adjacent, with intent to commit a felony,” shall be deemed "a rogue and vagabond".

[Bridewell]

We shouldn't forget this charming young lady, convicted at Liverpool Quarter Sessions on 24 October 1883 and sentenced to five years imprisonment for stealing.

I wonder if she's the same Mary J Gilligan who appears in the 1881 census as an "inmate" at the Broad Green Roman Catholic Reformatory For Girls in Liverpool. If so, she's shown as being only 18 then but 3 names down from hers there is a 16-year-old Mary Jane Kelly. Clearly 2 different people at that time but I wonder if one took on the identity of the other:-

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=le4869844&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&gss=angs-c&new=1&rank=1&msT=1&gsfn=mary%20jane&gsfn_x=0&gsln=gilligan&gsln_x=0&msbdy=1863&msrpn__ftp=Liverpool,%20Lancashire,%20England&msrpn=92187&msrpn_PInfo=8-%7C0%7C0%7C3257%7C3251%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C5271%7C92187%7C0%7C0%7C&_83004003-n_xcl=m&MSAV=1&uidh=le4&pcat=1881UKI&h=9308348&db=uki1881&indiv=1&ml_rpos=2

I'm not sure if that will show though as it's a subscription service.

[Bridewell]

Further to the above, Mary J Gilligan's place of birth is given as Liverpool, Lancashire but Mary Jane Kelly's is "NK" (presumably meaning Not Known). Might MJK not have known where she was born and felt compelled to invent something?

[Bridewell]

The wording of the 1824 Act was (at s.4):

“every suspected person or reputed thief frequenting any river, canal, or navigable stream, dock, or basin, or any quay, wharf, or warehouse near or adjoining thereto, or any street, highway, or avenue leading thereto, or any place of public resort, or any avenue leading thereto, or any street, highway, or place adjacent, with intent to commit a felony,” shall be deemed "a rogue and vagabond".

Thanks, David!

[David Orsam]

Also tried and convicted at the same time were Margaret Kelly the elder and Margaret Kelly the younger. The full charge was "Stealing, on the 30th August 1883 the sum of £2, the moneys of Alexander George, from his person. Margaret Kelly, the elder, is further charged with receiving, harbouring and maintaining the said Mary Jane Kelly, and Margaret Kelly, the younger, well knowing the said felony to have been committed".

[Paddy]

What I cant understand is why Mary Jane Kelly who married 9th Sept 1872 to Robert Wilson would be called Kelly or Gilligan in later police charges. So it is unlikely that she is Maybeas' Mary....

Pat......

[David Orsam]

What I cant understand is why Mary Jane Kelly who married 9th Sept 1872 to Robert Wilson would be called Kelly or Gilligan in later police charges. So it is unlikely that she is Maybeas' Mary....

The surname of Gilligan is unlikely to relate to her husband's name bearing in mind that Margaret Kelly (her sister?) called herself Margaret Gilligan. But Mary Jane Kelly who was 22 in 1883 would have been about 11 years old in 1872 so probably didn't marry anyone in that year.

[Tecs]

Hi PC

Bit tangential but one of the earlier arrests of Peter Sutcliffe was for "Going equipped for theft" in other words hanging around in a garden with items on you that could be used to break in to somewhere.

If only they had listed the items he was found with, a copper going through his file later on, instead of reading "Going equipped for theft" may have read "Going equipped for theft with a hammer and other tools."

And history may have been different.

regards,

Tecs

Oh, so if you looked suspicious, they took you in beforeyou did anything! Preemptive policing, I guess.
Thank you for the information.

[DJA]

Was it just faulty memory or was Mary a Scouser?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejw_LOi-nhk