How Drunk Was Mary?

[Amanda Sumner]

I don't think Hutchinson's behaviour was so bizarre. He obviously knew Mary, fancied her and had been her client a few times.

He didn't have any money to give her on that particular night, but he hung around outside Miller's Court IMO in the hope that Astrakhan man would go after an hour or so and then Mary, tipsy and well-paid from her client might take pity on him on a cold damp night and invite him in for a freebie in her nice warm bed.

Not everything has to have a sinister intent. He probably hung about in the cold and then, with nothing moving in Millers Court, walked away thinking "Oh well, when I get some money...."

That is one interpretation but why the elaborate description of a person who just would not have been there. Anyone with a gold chain in full view, easily seen in the dim street light, after two in the morning would have been lynched.
This man, imo, did not exist outside of Hutchinson's imagination.
Had Sarah not seen or described him at all, we would never have heard of a Mr Hutchinson. If you read his statement through, I think it's very bizarre.

[Rosella]

Ive read it through several times over the years. Yes it was very detailed, but Abberline, a very experienced policeman, believed Hutchinson.

[Amanda Sumner]

Ive read it through several times over the years. Yes it was very detailed, but Abberline, a very experienced policeman, believed Hutchinson.

Which I find very strange too. He's the last person, according to himself, to have seen her alive and yet he is interviewed and dismissed.
I have a feeling that the police were looking at a certain type of character, most likely foreign, and George gave them a description that fitted into that type.
I can't help feeling that it was rather short-sighted of them.
Abberline may have been experienced but he was not infallible. I really believe there was a missed opportunity here.
Mary was drunk, she was all set to drink with her companion in a nice warm room away from the cold drizzly night. I don't believe she had any reason to go out again.

Amanda

[barnflatwyngarde]

Ive read it through several times over the years. Yes it was very detailed, but Abberline, a very experienced policeman, believed Hutchinson.

Abberline did initially gave some credence to Hutchinson's statement.

However what strikes me as strange is that after giving an astonishingly detailed description of the possible murderer, Hutchinson simply vanishes from the case, and presumably from any police interest in his description and ergo his version of events.

In the 2 interviews Abberline gave to The Pall Mall Gazette in March 1903, he seems to be leaning towards Klosowski/Chapman as the possible murderer.
It is telling that he makes no reference to Hutchinson.

It is also noticeable that Abberline does not say that he bases his suspicions of Klosowski/Chapman on the fact that he matches the description given by Hutchinson.

[Amanda Sumner]

Abberline did initially gave some credence to Hutchinson's statement.


It is also noticeable that Abberline does not say that he bases his suspicions of Klosowski/Chapman on the fact that he matches the description given by Hutchinson.

Which just goes to show, however experienced he was, he was wide of the mark with Chapman. He had no more idea then than he did in 1888.

The whole episode of Hutchinson was weird. He could have been Mary's killer and yet he was considered unimportant. I think it highly suspicious, myself, that he disappeared, vanished, soon after his statements were made.

[Michael W Richards]

The thread asks how drunk was Mary...we have witness testimony by someone from that court that she was very intoxicated at 11:45pm. Was Blotchy a client? We have witnesses testify that she sang, off and on, from the moment she entered her room until after 1am. She told one witness that's exactly what she and her company were going to do..."have a song". Would Mary go out again that night to solicit strangers in the rain? No one w her do that, and this is the second room that Mary had run serious arrears on... within recent memory,... and as a result, she was finally evicted from her previous shelter. Testimony is that Mary owed somewhere around 2 1/2 -3 weeks back rent. An amount beyond the reach of any street whores single nights earnings.

So, is it probable that Mary went out to earn after coming home drunk with company and singing off and on for over an hour?

Sounds to me like she was in for the evening...and that's what the evidence suggests.

Cheers

[Amanda Sumner]

The thread asks how drunk was Mary...we have witness testimony by someone from that court that she was very intoxicated at 11:45pm. Was Blotchy a client? We have witnesses testify that she sang, off and on, from the moment she entered her room until after 1am. She told one witness that's exactly what she and her company were going to do..."have a song". Would Mary go out again that night to solicit strangers in the rain? No one w her do that, and this is the second room that Mary had run serious arrears on... within recent memory,... and as a result, she was finally evicted from her previous shelter. Testimony is that Mary owed somewhere around 2 1/2 -3 weeks back rent. An amount beyond the reach of any street whores single nights earnings.

So, is it probable that Mary went out to earn after coming home drunk with company and singing off and on for over an hour?

Sounds to me like she was in for the evening...and that's what the evidence suggests.

Cheers

I have to agree with you, and that the thread does ask how drunk was Mary, and was she likely to go out again.... We can't answer without involving Hutchinson. He was the only person to say she was out, no one else came forward to say they had seen her, as far as we know anyway, so I think it quite unlikely that she was. Why did Hutchinson lie?

[Abby Normal]

Abberline did initially gave some credence to Hutchinson's statement.

However what strikes me as strange is that after giving an astonishingly detailed description of the possible murderer, Hutchinson simply vanishes from the case, and presumably from any police interest in his description and ergo his version of events.

In the 2 interviews Abberline gave to The Pall Mall Gazette in March 1903, he seems to be leaning towards Klosowski/Chapman as the possible murderer.
It is telling that he makes no reference to Hutchinson.

It is also noticeable that Abberline does not say that he bases his suspicions of Klosowski/Chapman on the fact that he matches the description given by Hutchinson.

Hi Barn
Right-You would think that abberline would have said something about hutch's suspect-given the similarity between A man and Chapmans appearance -especially since it would be another point for his contention that chapman was the ripper.

To me it speaks volumes to what Abberline eventually came to think about hutch as a witness-not much apparently.

[Hatchett]

Hi Everyone,

Dont forget that the records are incomplete. There is nothing to say that Hutchinson actually just disappeared or that the police lost interest in what he had to say.

Also, the gold watch chain could have been fake.

It is not just Abberline that believes Hutchinson. Dew expresses no doubt on his description, just the night that it happened.

[Michael W Richards]

I have to agree with you, and that the thread does ask how drunk was Mary, and was she likely to go out again.... We can't answer without involving Hutchinson. He was the only person to say she was out, no one else came forward to say they had seen her, as far as we know anyway, so I think it quite unlikely that she was. Why did Hutchinson lie?

Actually Amanda we have witnesses from the Friday morning that say they spoke with Mary outside her room, and we have witness accounts for the night that people would like to assume were of Mary.

Interesting that Hutch never said anything about Mary being drunk, or perhaps starting a hangover. Since she could barely spit out goodnight to Mary Ann at almost 12, one would think 2 or 3 hours later she would still exhibit some indication of being that drunk at that time.

What is most problematic about Hutch is the fact that he claimed to be friends with Mary yet waited 4 full days and for the closure of the Inquest until he gives us his story....after Sarah Lewis's Wideawake Hat man was common knowledge.

Cheers Amanda

[Batman]

If I was to answer how drunk was Mary Kelly we could look at JtRs MO and see that an intoxicated prostitute or one than had been drinking quite a bit is part of the victimology.

[John Wheat]

If I was to answer how drunk was Mary Kelly we could look at JtRs MO and see that an intoxicated prostitute or one than had been drinking quite a bit is part of the victimology.

This begs the question did Jack drink with his victims prior to murdering them?

[Robert]

I don't believe Jack even met Kelly prior to killing her.

[Batman]

Kennedy says otherwise though.

[John Wheat]

I don't believe Jack even met Kelly prior to killing her.

I meant did Jack drink with his victims immediately before murdering them e.g. on the same night.

Cheers John