Her eyes?

[Mortis]

Yes, Stride was killed between 12.55 and 1am. There was only a very narrow timeframe after 12.50 when people leaving the club cleared the yard and 1am when Diemschutz found her body.

If she was a Ripper victim and he was indeed interrupted, I suspect the killing took place almost immediately before 1.

If that is so, then the killer most definitely didn't have time. Even if the timing of her death is a little off, all the killer had time to do is bolt from the place as fast as possible.

There is in actuality no evidence of any interruption, whether she was cut a minute before she was found or 5 minutes before there is no physical evidence that suggests any further activity was intended or omitted in haste. Her cut time is estimated to be as early as 12:46-:56, actual TOD to the minute would be difficult to determine then and now.

I should just add that the cut time estimate is Blackwells, but when Phillips arrived at 1:30 he said " within the past hour". She may have been cut earlier than is currently believed.

Of course there is no evidence, just like there is no evidence that Nichols was interrupted or that Chapman's uterus was taken by a medical student, as you've suggested. These are all speculations. Nothing as far as Jack the Ripper can be evidence because we do not have any fingeriprints or DNA to confirm anything we know about the killings. But is it likely? I would wager so. As far as this case as a whole goes, all we can work for is the likeliest scenarios. If I pose the question - is it possible that 4 deranged mutilators all worked their "craft" in the same district? Sure, I guess. Anything is possible. But is it likely? Not very.

And this is why I think that Stride indeed was killed by JTR. Because the coincidences are simply too much. Don't get me wrong, it is possible that you are right, but it is one in a million shot for something like this to happen and everything surrounding it, and then in a walking distance for JTR to strike again. Unless you think that Eddowes' killer has nothing to do with Chapman/Nichols'?

Btw, I'm curious. You believe Chapman and Nichols' killer were the same, Stride was different, Eddowes was different from all the others and Kelly's killer was different from all the previous victims? Am I understanding this correctly?

[Michael W Richards]

That's only if the Ripper was not interrupted which there is some evidence that he was. The warm temperature of the body would suggest Stride was killed very recently. Btw, was her time of death ever estimated like the other victims? I can't find anything. It's very unfortunate if it wasn't because that'd be one of the surest ways to know if Stride is actually a Ripper victim or not.

There is in actuality no evidence of any interruption, whether she was cut a minute before she was found or 5 minutes before there is no physical evidence that suggests any further activity was intended or omitted in haste. Her cut time is estimated to be as early as 12:46-:56, actual TOD to the minute would be difficult to determine then and now.

I should just add that the cut time estimate is Blackwells, but when Phillips arrived at 1:30 he said " within the past hour". She may have been cut earlier than is currently believed.

[Meet Ze Monster]

That's only if the Ripper was not interrupted which there is some evidence that he was. The warm temperature of the body would suggest Stride was killed very recently. Btw, was her time of death ever estimated like the other victims? I can't find anything. It's very unfortunate if it wasn't because that'd be one of the surest ways to know if Stride is actually a Ripper victim or not.

Yes, Stride was killed between 12.55 and 1am. There was only a very narrow timeframe after 12.50 when people leaving the club cleared the yard and 1am when Diemschutz found her body.

If she was a Ripper victim and he was indeed interrupted, I suspect the killing took place almost immediately before 1.

[Mortis]

Nobody thinking of ripping up anyone.

That's only if the Ripper was not interrupted which there is some evidence that he was. The warm temperature of the body would suggest Stride was killed very recently. Btw, was her time of death ever estimated like the other victims? I can't find anything. It's very unfortunate if it wasn't because that'd be one of the surest ways to know if Stride is actually a Ripper victim or not.

[Greenway]

But with Lechmere slotted in as our perpetrator, we get to run this another way: an imaginary scenario in which...

You'd be amazed at the scenarios I can run with Queen Victoria slotted in as our perpetrator! She had a deep seated grudge against the Swedes apparently, so went out of her way to send them a message with Stride's murder.

[Michael W Richards]

You know, the more I've thought about that line (whoever wrote it: it's hard to unpack the attibutions at this point...), the better do I grasp the enormous difference Lechmere makes to the way these events look...

Most argument still occupies the space between 'the Ripper was interrupted, probably by Diemschutz' and 'Different knife and cut, besides the lack of mutilations: it wasn't the Ripper who killed Stride...'

But with Lechmere slotted in as our perpetrator, we get to run this another way: an imaginary scenario in which it *was* the Ripper, and he *wasn't* interrupted...

The obvious differences observed in relation to his lashing out at Stride for whatever reason (and not for a moment do I believe he was seen) are to do with the uniqueness of the situation, socio-geographically speaking. His mum, current stepfather and eldest daughter live in a house literally streets away; he'd grown up in numerous houses in that area and lived there until mere months before; he's likely been close by for hours before the murder, possibly talking and drinking with people who knew him; it's not impossible that he had 'history' with Stride, who might have known or recognised him as a local; and there were old acquaintances of the family living literally in sight of Dutfield's Yard in the Marshall household. If he'd been visiting his mum or walking her back home in the dark, he probably didn't have his usual knife on him; and he'd probably downed a few pints by closing time -- very much unlike his 'armed and alert' workday morning killings.

With all this in mind, it seems to me that the one thing we *shouldn't* expect to be seeing in Berner Street is a 'normal' Ripper killing.

And, finally, if -- as we are constantly being told -- Lechmere 'really was known as Charles Cross', the one thing he -- as the official, named discoverer of Nichols' body -- couldn't afford to do was be remembered by a load of former neighbours as having been visibly present in the area where another obvious Ripper victim was then immediately found.

You want to argue that Stride doesn't look like a Ripper victim? That's exactly what Lechmere wanted you to argue -- and exactly what Mitre Square was intended to confirm!

Get my drift, esteemed fellow detectives...?

-- Oo-er... Is this off-topic for the thread?? Apologies if so...

Bests,

Mark D.

When you look at evidence based on an outcome or suspect youre going to see what fits with that and tailor your profile accordingly. Youll see what you planned on seeing. In Strides case there is doubt circumstantially, with physical evidence and outcome that all adds up to a man who wanted to kill a woman. Nobody thinking of ripping up anyone.

[Mark J D]

... As for Stride, the only logical way to include her is to suggest interruptions, yet none are indicated or present in the evidence...

You know, the more I've thought about that line (whoever wrote it: it's hard to unpack the attibutions at this point...), the better do I grasp the enormous difference Lechmere makes to the way these events look...

Most argument still occupies the space between 'the Ripper was interrupted, probably by Diemschutz' and 'Different knife and cut, besides the lack of mutilations: it wasn't the Ripper who killed Stride...'

But with Lechmere slotted in as our perpetrator, we get to run this another way: an imaginary scenario in which it *was* the Ripper, and he *wasn't* interrupted...

The obvious differences observed in relation to his lashing out at Stride for whatever reason (and not for a moment do I believe he was seen) are to do with the uniqueness of the situation, socio-geographically speaking. His mum, current stepfather and eldest daughter live in a house literally streets away; he'd grown up in numerous houses in that area and lived there until mere months before; he's likely been close by for hours before the murder, possibly talking and drinking with people who knew him; it's not impossible that he had 'history' with Stride, who might have known or recognised him as a local; and there were old acquaintances of the family living literally in sight of Dutfield's Yard in the Marshall household. If he'd been visiting his mum or walking her back home in the dark, he probably didn't have his usual knife on him; and he'd probably downed a few pints by closing time -- very much unlike his 'armed and alert' workday morning killings.

With all this in mind, it seems to me that the one thing we *shouldn't* expect to be seeing in Berner Street is a 'normal' Ripper killing.

And, finally, if -- as we are constantly being told -- Lechmere 'really was known as Charles Cross', the one thing he -- as the official, named discoverer of Nichols' body -- couldn't afford to do was be remembered by a load of former neighbours as having been visibly present in the area where another obvious Ripper victim was then immediately found.

You want to argue that Stride doesn't look like a Ripper victim? That's exactly what Lechmere wanted you to argue -- and exactly what Mitre Square was intended to confirm!

Get my drift, esteemed fellow detectives...?

-- Oo-er... Is this off-topic for the thread?? Apologies if so...

Bests,

Mark D.

[Mortis]

Ive responded inside your post...
As for Stride, the only logical way to include her is to suggest interruptions, yet none are indicated or present in the evidence.

True, but then again that's also why you'd include Nichols, as well. You have a woman who is actively soliciting, described as a prostitute, who is killed in a very lively and risky place. A woman that was dispatched very easily without a sound or alerting anybody, in a very similar manner to the rest of the killings. A very short distance later that would almost perfectly coincide with the walking distance, the Ripper operates on Eddowes. Murders happen very rarely, and for a murder of a similar capacity to the Ripper's killings to happen on the same night within walking distance of another killing is a pretty big coincidence, to be sure.

I might also be inclined to see the near pitch black operation and possible short timing on Eddowes as limiting what we would see in terms of skills, but if he demonstrated medically trained skills sets in near dark on Hanbury, then I would expect similar standards in Mitre Square. There arent.

Hanbury wasn't near dark, it was probably becoming fairly bright at the time Chapman was killed. Certainly not as dark as Eddowes would have been. And how did he not display similar skills? Brown suggested that the killer had considerable knowledge in regards to organs and where they are situated. He was also operating under a very limited time and apparently even despite that was effective in doing what he wanted with Eddowes aside from stealing the kidney. This showcases more skill than anything. I don't know why you place Chapman's killer as having been more skillful just because he didn't do anything other than steal the uterus. Both Chapman and Eddowes' killer achieved what they wanted to achieve, only Eddowes' killer took his time to do other things, as well.

Philips saw the most Canonicals in death of any physician, and it would be his opinions that should carry the most weight. And in fact his comments suggest he did see what the killer ultimately wanted by the way and order the cuts were made, and again that there were "no meaningless cuts".

Philips also believed all the C5 were killed by one man, yet you conveniently ignore that. Why? We've also discussed the "meaningless cuts" statement.

Youve made assumptions about why he killed...maybe better to let the evidence tell you what he wanted. Like in Strides case, the evidence says he wanted her dead...thats it.

True, but you also have to take into account the fact that there are easier ways to kill someone than doing it so brazenly. Her killer was also not an amateur, that's for certain. He knew perfectly well how to incapacitate her. I know that's Whitechapel but even in Whitechapel there weren't many of those.

There is no way to dispute Mary had sold herself, there is the matter of the arrears in her case, what she told Barnett about being afraid, and the fact that the only man we see her take into the room aside from Barnett she sang to for over an hour. The circumstances dictate what she was doing that night...and I dont see solicitation.

What other purpose would she have to invite a stranger in her house, undress herself and get ready for bed or sex (given the position her neck was cut from) if he wasn't a client? And is there any set procedure as to what should be done with a client? 4 of the 5 C5 spent some time with the Ripper.

Not only did he not want to come forward, he may have run when spotted on a tram a few days later that week.

Hm?

There are no broad strokes here....not all the women appear to have been soliciting, so its not an MO requirement.

Annie and Nichols definitely were. Stride went out her way to make herself very presentable and was said to have been seen with clients. Very unlikely she would be doing anything else around midnight. Eddowes wasn't a prostitute, but her situation at that point was very desperate and she had no money for her room. Kelly was a known prostitute who Barnett left because she was "back to her old ways". What would any of these women be doing with other men around midnight?

Not on Chapman, I think there were a few bruises on her chest, three I think. And one beside her eye, but Phillips said they were old bruises, likely from the fight she had with another woman recently.

"The injuries were certainly not self-inflicted. The bruises on the face were evidently recent, especially about the chin and side of the jaw, but the bruises in front of the chest and temple were of longer standing -- probably of days"

Evidently he controlled her in some way.

It's possible, only because we can't honestly say it's impossible. Pressure marks leave bruises in general, like we see (read), on Nichols face. One on the side of her jaw and the second on the opposite cheekbone, consistent with a thumb & fingers of the same hand spread across her face.

No killer does a murder or a crime in the same way always. My point was that the killer obviously slashed their throats first. How he went about it is up to speculation. If he strangled them with bare hands, that would leave a lot more bruising than any of the victims have showcased except Mary whose face was butchered and there's no way to tell.

The Daily News reports that shortly before the cry of "oh, murder" there had been a row in the court. Between who & why we are not told, and this is the only report of a row that I recall seeing. So perhaps the cry was connected with the row?
Whether Kelly was already dead by that time we can't be sure.

Or perhaps it was nothing? First time hearing about it. And what would a "row" imply? A row would cause some sort of commotion. And we know McCarthy was around the vicinity. Nobody of the witnesses seem to report it, so I don't believe it.

Nobody can be sure at what time Mary died because of the state of her body, but we can make a pretty reasonable guess. Anything past 02:00 AM is very suspect because the traces of food remaining would push her time of death way before she was even discovered. It's not about opinion anymore but about the fact that she must have eaten somewhat close to her time of death. This is based on everything we know about the digestion process.

Where I think you are in error is the part where Prater says there was no light in her room. That suggests to me Kelly was back out on the streets, that is also consistent with the press report that some residents saw her out after one o'clock. Then of course there's Mrs Kennedy....

Why? Per Cox's statements Mary was already drunk with even more alcohol in the hand of Blotchy that is highly likely they drank to the bottom. Mary's neighbor Pickett and her husband confirm that up until 12:30 AM Mary is still singing, Cox returns home somewhere around 01:00 AM, she attests that Mary is still singing, but curiously enough when she leaves back out again whether she continued singing or not isn't mentioned. Prater comes back home after the man she is waiting for doesn't come home. She comes home around 01:30. Her testimony is that she waited outside the Court, even conversed with McCarthy. Nor Blotchy or MJK are seen leaving her room. When Prater returns home no glimmer of light is seen and apparently the singing has stopped. At this point, whatever happened, even if Mary is still alive, Blotchy is in her room, unless he is a ghost. It would be impossible for Mary to leave without her being noticed or the witnesses being incredibly wrong or outright lying.

She is supposedly seen around 02:00 AM by Hutchinson, asking him for money (but why would she ask him for money when Blotchy should have given her money? Plus, apparently she ate and drank. Maybe for her room?). Then the most absurd thing happens. As she is walking by, a man approaches her from out of nowhere and they both suddenly, like they know each other, go back to her room. Here's my problem with this - Astrakhan, by the dialogue Hutchinson gave him, seems like a client. But a client doesn't just stop a random woman on the street and talk her into ******* him. It makes no sense. Hutchinson's testimony also never mentions Kelly as drunk, in fact she appears quite sober, capable of conversing with him freely while Cox said Kelly could hardly reply reply to her. Then we're supposed to believe that Kelly went out again before getting another man back in the house. What's more is that Hutchinson never described Kelly or what she was wearing. I'm sorry, but this simply makes no sense whatsoever. You'd have to suspend your disbelief quite a lot to go with this scenario. Even if we presume Cox is lying and we discount the whole event from earlier, it still doesn't make any sense.

I don't know where you get that from. Kennedy makes no claim to not knowing Kelly, she even lived opposite Kelly at No.2, so how could she not know her immediate neighbor 3-4 ft across the court?

It is a pretty easy conclusion to make given that Kennedy was not a resident at Miller's Court but was simply visiting her parents that night. Even if she knew Kelly by her previous visits, she probably did only vaguely. How much trust you can put in her recognizing Kelly at 03:00 AM pitch black?

I think we all know how inaccurate medical estimates have been in this ripper case, even the doctors don't agree with each other. Plus, Bond has a reputation for being contrary with his medical peers. Look at the Mylett case as a good example, how Bond disgreed with about 5 or 6 of his peers, even his own assistant Hibbert disagreed with him.

But we're not talking on opinions here, but on Kelly's digestion system which is the same as any other human. Even if he was slightly off, it doesn't make sense for her to be killed much after 02:00 regardless.

I don't buy that argument but some prefer to think it was possible. A clear case of mistaken identity in my view.

Which is exactly why you shouldn't believe every witness that says something, especially dubious witness descriptions.

More than that, Lewis saw a couple pass up the court ahead of her, she then noticed a man standing opposite (Hutchinson), so the couple Hutchinson was following (Astrachan & Kelly) must have been there. Lewis also described the woman as 'the worse for drink', which is just how Hutchinson described Kelly.

But the couple Lewis saw directly contradicts Hutchinson's testimony. For one, Hutchinson's whole testimony is that he followed Kelly and Astrakhan back to her place. Kelly and Astrakhan stopped at the entrace to the Court, exchanged kissing and sweet words for some time. Then they went in Kelly's room with Hutchinson overlooking them and waiting for them for some time. Not only is Lewis location wrong, but the couple couldn't be Kelly and Astrakhan per Hutchinson's description because they'd be passing him while he was looking for Kelly in the court.

Kelly must have been murdered sometime between 3:00-4:00 in my view.
Kennedy saw her about 3:00am, so Kelly & Astrachan must have both left the court about the time Hutchinson walked away. Astrachan may have walked westward down Dorset St. in the opposite direction to Hutchinson, while Kelly walked eastward to the Britannia on the corner.
I suspect Astrachan was rattled by Hutchinson, first staring him in the face, then following on close behind, only to stand across the road the entire time he was with Kelly. Perhaps he thought he was going to get mugged by Hutchinson, and that may truly have been Hutchinson's initial intent.
He presents a different persona to the police in his interview, but that's only to be expected.

But are we supposed to believe that a very drunk Kelly just went through 3 clients in the space of 4 hours? That's very, very unlikely.

[Wickerman]

There was bruising on Chapman's face, wasn't it? I remember thumb marks around her eyes....

Not on Chapman, I think there were a few bruises on her chest, three I think. And one beside her eye, but Phillips said they were old bruises, likely from the fight she had with another woman recently.

Stride was "controlled" via her handkerchief and Eddowes had no signs of being bruised anywhere. But it is possible for the Ripper to have placed his hands on her mouth without bruising them.

It's possible, only because we can't honestly say it's impossible. Pressure marks leave bruises in general, like we see (read), on Nichols face. One on the side of her jaw and the second on the opposite cheekbone, consistent with a thumb & fingers of the same hand spread across her face.

We have no evidence Mary was ever heard screaming. Lewis and Prater testimonies contradict each other, we do not even know where the "oh murder" even came from. Don't get me wrong, it is possible they heard the shout, but it most likely wasn't from Mary's room. As the people around that neighborhood say, "it was common".

The Daily News reports that shortly before the cry of "oh, murder" there had been a row in the court. Between who & why we are not told, and this is the only report of a row that I recall seeing. So perhaps the cry was connected with the row?
Whether Kelly was already dead by that time we can't be sure.

I'm not exactly sure if the police found food in her house, but I've never seen anything of that sort, so we'll presume she had zero food in the house. She must have eaten somewhere before going back to her room. For us to hit somewhere around her supposed death at 02:00 AM she must have eaten around 10:00-11:00 PM. This is highly likely given that Mary was drunk and coming home with the guy that probably brought her this stuff. Highly unlikely she had eaten before that given the time the food was in her stomach. This also completely discounts Hutchinson's testimony and other such sightings after because they'd push her time of death way after she was more than likely killed, even past 04:00 AM. The earliest she could have eaten to fit in the 04:00 AM scenario was 00:00 AM or 01:00 AM, give or take. We know she was in the house with Blotchy at the time and highly unlikely to have food at the house. So if we reconstruct the events:

Prater meets her somewhere around 20:00 PM, they exchange greetings and part ways, she leaves her house. Mary plies her trade and meets Blotchy somewhere, he charms her and they spend some time together (evidently the Ripper seemed to spend some time with the majority of his victims except Eddowes who he blitzed.), he probably buys her food and a drink, they have a good time and Blotchy suggests they find some desolate place to "try" her services, Kelly agrees and suggests her home to which he happily agrees and invites him to her own room (his other victims had lodgings, so he was at a serious disadvantage as to how to kill them and mutilate them fast in the open), but Kelly was perfect. Now he could do with her body whatever he always desired to do (probably why she is his last victim - he achieved everything he wanted. But that is my speculation). So they go back, Cox meets them and Mary starts to sing. Now obviously she signs for a hour and more and Blotchy doesn't kill her because that'd raise a lot of suspicions if she stops suddenly. Hell, maybe he enjoyed it. I don't remember anyone commenting how good Kelly's voice was. Anyway, somewhere after Cox leaves and Prater returns home at around 01:00 AM Kelly stops singing and Prater says there was no light on coming from the partition. It is likely that at this point they are getting ready for sex. Mary undresses herself, gets ready on the bed, Blotchy slits her throat and proceeds to mutilate her without a sound. This is the only scenario that fits with all the evidence gathered, unless some witnesses were completely off with their accounts of her.

Where I think you are in error is the part where Prater says there was no light in her room. That suggests to me Kelly was back out on the streets, that is also consistent with the press report that some residents saw her out after one o'clock. Then of course there's Mrs Kennedy....

Problem is Mrs. Kennedy didn't even know Mary.

I don't know where you get that from. Kennedy makes no claim to not knowing Kelly, she even lived opposite Kelly at No.2, so how could she not know her immediate neighbor 3-4 ft across the court?

Mary being the girl she saw is also highly unlikely given Bond's autopsy report and the last time Mary had eaten food.

I think we all know how inaccurate medical estimates have been in this ripper case, even the doctors don't agree with each other. Plus, Bond has a reputation for being contrary with his medical peers. Look at the Mylett case as a good example, how Bond disgreed with about 5 or 6 of his peers, even his own assistant Hibbert disagreed with him.

Some witnesses also say they saw Mary basically the next day which is not only highly unlikely, it is impossible. We have to be very careful when taking to account what every witness say he/she saw.

I don't buy that argument but some prefer to think it was possible. A clear case of mistaken identity in my view.

Yes, but only the part that is most believable - that he was probably there but concocted the story of meeting Kelly and Astrakhan man. Lewis only sees presumably him and no-one else.

More than that, Lewis saw a couple pass up the court ahead of her, she then noticed a man standing opposite (Hutchinson), so the couple Hutchinson was following (Astrachan & Kelly) must have been there. Lewis also described the woman as 'the worse for drink', which is just how Hutchinson described Kelly.

Kelly must have been murdered sometime between 3:00-4:00 in my view.
Kennedy saw her about 3:00am, so Kelly & Astrachan must have both left the court about the time Hutchinson walked away. Astrachan may have walked westward down Dorset St. in the opposite direction to Hutchinson, while Kelly walked eastward to the Britannia on the corner.
I suspect Astrachan was rattled by Hutchinson, first staring him in the face, then following on close behind, only to stand across the road the entire time he was with Kelly. Perhaps he thought he was going to get mugged by Hutchinson, and that may truly have been Hutchinson's initial intent.
He presents a different persona to the police in his interview, but that's only to be expected.

[Michael W Richards]

Ive responded inside your post...

The murder of Eddowes did, too, as per the autopsy. Your only real thing to go on here is to say that Chapman wasn't butchered as much as Eddowes and while that may be true, we see a gradual increase in the killer's mutilations all throughout the killings with the exception of Stride (which if she is a Ripper victim, he was likely to be interrupted, same as Nichols).

As for Stride, the only logical way to include her is to suggest interruptions, yet none are indicated or present in the evidence.

Furthermore, the idea that there were no meaningless cuts is very far from the truth. Her neck was being cut the way it was is "unecessary", the killer also cut two third from the bladder for no reason, as well as the upper vagina. Apparently he cut through her colon, as well. IMO, if we're talking about skill, with Eddowes the killer displayed far more skill to do what he did with zero lighting and very little precious time to carry out his work.

I might also be inclined to see the near pitch black operation and possible short timing on Eddowes as limiting what we would see in terms of skills, but if he demonstrated medically trained skills sets in near dark on Hanbury, then I would expect similar standards in Mitre Square. There arent.

Phillips may speculate whatever he wants, we do not know what the killer sought. If the goal was to seek an uterus, they were far more suitable victims, in far more suitable places and environments that the killer could take them from. It is 99% a trophy of his, it has nothing to do with anything else.

Philips saw the most Canonicals in death of any physician, and it would be his opinions that should carry the most weight. And in fact his comments suggest he did see what the killer ultimately wanted by the way and order the cuts were made, and again that there were "no meaningless cuts".

But that would suggest that Chapman's uterus was the sole goal for the killing, or that Eddowes killer only sought the kidney, etc. The goal was to murder and mutilate, pose the victims and take whatever organ as a trophy the killer wanted. This is the only thing we can say for certain about the situation. What use would Chapman's organ carry for her killer? Same use as Mary's heart, I would imagine.

Youve made assumptions about why he killed...maybe better to let the evidence tell you what he wanted. Like in Strides case, the evidence says he wanted her dead...thats it.

But here's the thing - witnesses describe Mary as a prostitute. So we know for a fact that even with Barnett and after him she slept with clients. Now I do not believe it was ever stated what location she used for her clients, but if everyone knows she is a prostitute, it's pretty clear to guess that at least sometimes she brought them home. Mary began prostituting again after Barnett lost his job which was a couple of months before her killing. There is also no recollection either or so that Mary brought clients. It is never mentioned and it doesn't appear to have been relevant to the investigation. She may have brought some, but nobody really mentions it one way or another.

There is no way to dispute Mary had sold herself, there is the matter of the arrears in her case, what she told Barnett about being afraid, and the fact that the only man we see her take into the room aside from Barnett she sang to for over an hour. The circumstances dictate what she was doing that night...and I dont see solicitation.

If he isn't a client and is instead a friend of Kelly, as you would suggest, then it is almost impossible for him to not come forward and explain himself. You can't have it both ways.

Not only did he not want to come forward, he may have run when spotted on a tram a few days later that week.

There are no broad strokes here....not all the women appear to have been soliciting, so its not an MO requirement.

[Mortis]

If the above actually represents your conclusions then we arent talking about the same events. Th murder of Annie Chapman instigated a search of trained and skilled medical students or practioners, there is no other murder in all the Unsolved murder that suggested someone of that calibre. "There were no meaningless cuts" Phillips said, so he saw intent and purpose. Phillips believed that the cuts made on Annie were done so as to obtain what he specifically sought.

The murder of Eddowes did, too, as per the autopsy. Your only real thing to go on here is to say that Chapman wasn't butchered as much as Eddowes and while that may be true, we see a gradual increase in the killer's mutilations all throughout the killings with the exception of Stride (which if she is a Ripper victim, he was likely to be interrupted, same as Nichols).

Furthermore, the idea that there were no meaningless cuts is very far from the truth. Her neck was being cut the way it was is "unecessary", the killer also cut two third from the bladder for no reason, as well as the upper vagina. Apparently he cut through her colon, as well. IMO, if we're talking about skill, with Eddowes the killer displayed far more skill to do what he did with zero lighting and very little precious time to carry out his work.

Phillips may speculate whatever he wants, we do not know what the killer sought. If the goal was to seek an uterus, they were far more suitable victims, in far more suitable places and environments that the killer could take them from. It is 99% a trophy of his, it has nothing to do with anything else.

So when I say meaningless in room 13, you can have your pick. Almost all the was done to her was no so as to obtain her heart, which was the organ tken from Mary.

But that would suggest that Chapman's uterus was the sole goal for the killing, or that Eddowes killer only sought the kidney, etc. The goal was to murder and mutilate, pose the victims and take whatever organ as a trophy the killer wanted. This is the only thing we can say for certain about the situation. What use would Chapman's organ carry for her killer? Same use as Mary's heart, I would imagine.

As for prostitution, perhaps you forget that Mary didnt have a room to bring clients home to until Barnett was gone, then she had Maria there. In reality she had one or two days when she even could have done so, and not one account of someone there that saw her bring anyone in before Blotchy. You could say he represents a client, but that would only be true if what he was buying was a serenade for about and hour or so.

But here's the thing - witnesses describe Mary as a prostitute. So we know for a fact that even with Barnett and after him she slept with clients. Now I do not believe it was ever stated what location she used for her clients, but if everyone knows she is a prostitute, it's pretty clear to guess that at least sometimes she brought them home. Mary began prostituting again after Barnett lost his job which was a couple of months before her killing. There is also no recollection either or so that Mary brought clients. It is never mentioned and it doesn't appear to have been relevant to the investigation. She may have brought some, but nobody really mentions it one way or another.

As for the serenade and what not, Jack spent some time with at least 4 of the C5. And if Blotchy is not a client, then who is he? Nobody close to Kelly seems to have known him, including Barnett. The all too common in Ripper's killings "shabby genteel" springs out of nowhere and disappears, no-one the wiser. There is no conceivable sense for him to be a close friend of Kelly, so the only real conclusion we could come is that he is a client. If he isn't a client and is instead a friend of Kelly, as you would suggest, then it is almost impossible for him to not come forward and explain himself. You can't have it both ways.

[Michael W Richards]

2. Why would you classify the acts as "incomplete" and "meaningless"? If we go by that kind of logic, all of Jack's acts in each kill were incomplete and meaningless. The guy wanted to kill and mutilate, there was no particular "sense" to his acts aside from deriving pleasure in it. What we need to understand is that he had particular goals in his mind and he accomplished them in each and every kill. You call his acts "meaningless", but they were precisely what he wanted to do and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. He cut her in the places he wanted to cut, he took out the organs he wanted to take out, he posed them in the ways he wanted them posed, he carved her face in the way he wanted to carve the face, he sliced her flesh off and to top it all off he took her heart with him. These are not the acts of someone who doesn't know what he is doing. If you want to talk about "seemingly meaningless acts" that would be Tabram's killer that suggest an enraged person whose end goal was to kill his victim, but either didn't know how or was too enraged and the adrenaline came over him to actually do it in a calculated manner. In contrast to the Ripper's killing with Kelly, his actions are very deliberate and calculated.

If the above actually represents your conclusions then we arent talking about the same events. Th murder of Annie Chapman instigated a search of trained and skilled medical students or practioners, there is no other murder in all the Unsolved murder that suggested someone of that calibre. "There were no meaningless cuts" Phillips said, so he saw intent and purpose. Phillips believed that the cuts made on Annie were done so as to obtain what he specifically sought.

So when I say meaningless in room 13, you can have your pick. Almost all the was done to her was no so as to obtain her heart, which was the organ tken from Mary.

As for prostitution, perhaps you forget that Mary didnt have a room to bring clients home to until Barnett was gone, then she had Maria there. In reality she had one or two days when she even could have done so, and not one account of someone there that saw her bring anyone in before Blotchy. You could say he represents a client, but that would only be true if what he was buying was a serenade for about and hour or so.

Evidence is not static, it falls to one side or the other when new information is introduced, like dominoes. I suggest you use all the dominoes.

[Mortis]

Back then people would say rather strange things when being murdered
Here is just one example reported by a witness of the 2nd Ratcliffe highway murder quoted from my own work:
"At the inquest, John Turner said he had gone to bed at 10:40 p.m. but shortly afterwards, he’d heard the tavern door open with a bang. Bridget cried out, “We’re all murdered!” and Mr Williamson shouted, “I am a dead man!” It’s unclear whether this just reflects the unusual turn of phrase they had back in the 1800s, or whether John Turner was imagining a more dramatic version of events"
Shortly after saying this they were indeed murdered.

There's also further examples in Jan Bondeson's Victorian crimes books.

Yes, but isn't Turner's statements hearsay? From what I've read there's no evidence he was even there. And police didn't seem to believe some of his other outlandish statements. And as I said in my response to Wickerman, it's not simply about the words.

Are you sure?, I recall bruising around the jaw of Nichols, but not on Chapman, Eddowes or Stride. Chapman had scratches on her neck below her left(?) ear, which was thought to be due to the killers nails, but could equally have been Chapman's own nails.

There was bruising on Chapman's face, wasn't it? I remember thumb marks around her eyes. Stride was "controlled" via her handkerchief and Eddowes had no signs of being bruised anywhere. But it is possible for the Ripper to have placed his hands on her mouth without bruising them.

I think too 'theatrical' is the word, yes I agree, however what Mr Twibbs writes is also true. Back in the 19th century they had a strange vocabulary compared to our usages. We can also see a variety of uses for "Oh, murder" in the contemporary press. Back in the day we find stories in the press of theft where the victim cries "oh, murder", but the culprit had left the scene already. Another case I recall of a woman in her back yard at night being frightened by a homeless man, she screamed "oh, murder", until the police showed up.

It's not really about the vocabulary, but about the fact that we as humans have an instinctive self-preservation reaction of screaming, if we're attacked. Like nothing to do with words, but actual screaming. We have no evidence Mary was ever heard screaming. Lewis and Prater testimonies contradict each other, we do not even know where the "oh murder" even came from. Don't get me wrong, it is possible they heard the shout, but it most likely wasn't from Mary's room. As the people around that neighborhood say, "it was common".

So you agree with Dr. Bond's estimate?
"...The body was comparatively cold at 2 o'clock and the remains of a recently taken meal were found in the stomach and scattered about over the intestines. It is, therefore, pretty certain that the woman must have been dead about 12 hours and the partly digested food would indicate that death took place about 3 or 4 hours after the food was taken, so one or two o'clock in the morning would be the probable time of the murder."
One wonders how he arrived at that estimate without an established time for when she last ate.
Unless, of course, Abberline had been able to trace the source of that last meal?

Absolutely. If I remember correctly, Philips estimated her time of death at somewhere around 06:00 AM, which is highly unlikely. Since Kelly's body was so butchered, it is pretty hard to estimate her time of death. The loss of blood, the various removal of organs would have accelerated that. I'm not sure how much Bond and Phillips took that into account. Bond to me had the right idea though, but we'll have to reconstruct what time she ate which is next to impsossible, but still - we can make a good guess and i'll try.

So we know that that around 11:45 PM Mary is sighted with Blotchy. Evidently Cox looked down and saw only a pot of beer. If Blotchy and Mary were carrying anything else, we'd know. So no food. I'm not exactly sure if the police found food in her house, but I've never seen anything of that sort, so we'll presume she had zero food in the house. She must have eaten somewhere before going back to her room. For us to hit somewhere around her supposed death at 02:00 AM she must have eaten around 10:00-11:00 PM. This is highly likely given that Mary was drunk and coming home with the guy that probably brought her this stuff. Highly unlikely she had eaten before that given the time the food was in her stomach. This also completely discounts Hutchinson's testimony and other such sightings after because they'd push her time of death way after she was more than likely killed, even past 04:00 AM. The earliest she could have eaten to fit in the 04:00 AM scenario was 00:00 AM or 01:00 AM, give or take. We know she was in the house with Blotchy at the time and highly unlikely to have food at the house. So if we reconstruct the events:

Prater meets her somewhere around 20:00 PM, they exchange greetings and part ways, she leaves her house. Mary plies her trade and meets Blotchy somewhere, he charms her and they spend some time together (evidently the Ripper seemed to spend some time with the majority of his victims except Eddowes who he blitzed.), he probably buys her food and a drink, they have a good time and Blotchy suggests they find some desolate place to "try" her services, Kelly agrees and suggests her home to which he happily agrees and invites him to her own room (his other victims had lodgings, so he was at a serious disadvantage as to how to kill them and mutilate them fast in the open), but Kelly was perfect. Now he could do with her body whatever he always desired to do (probably why she is his last victim - he achieved everything he wanted. But that is my speculation). So they go back, Cox meets them and Mary starts to sing. Now obviously she signs for a hour and more and Blotchy doesn't kill her because that'd raise a lot of suspicions if she stops suddenly. Hell, maybe he enjoyed it. I don't remember anyone commenting how good Kelly's voice was. Anyway, somewhere after Cox leaves and Prater returns home at around 01:00 AM Kelly stops singing and Prater says there was no light on coming from the partition. It is likely that at this point they are getting ready for sex. Mary undresses herself, gets ready on the bed, Blotchy slits her throat and proceeds to mutilate her without a sound. This is the only scenario that fits with all the evidence gathered, unless some witnesses were completely off with their accounts of her.

Not quite, we do have Mrs Kennedy who said she saw Kelly outside the Britannia about 3:00 am.
Also, the police had to return to Millers Court the day after the inquest to re-interview some of the residents, it turned out Kelly was seen out on the streets between 2:00-3:00am, afterall.

Problem is Mrs. Kennedy didn't even know Mary. Mary being the girl she saw is also highly unlikely given Bond's autopsy report and the last time Mary had eaten food. Some witnesses also say they saw Mary basically the next day which is not only highly unlikely, it is impossible. We have to be very careful when taking to account what every witness say he/she saw.

Part of Hutchinson's story is corroborated by Sarah Lewis.

Yes, but only the part that is most believable - that he was probably there but concocted the story of meeting Kelly and Astrakhan man. Lewis only sees presumably him and no-one else.

[Wickerman]

Well, here's the thing. With the previous 4 victims we have a very clear evidence that the killer placed his hands on their mouth, bruising their faces. It was not in the sense of choking them but making them quiet while he cuts their throat....

Are you sure?, I recall bruising around the jaw of Nichols, but not on Chapman, Eddowes or Stride. Chapman had scratches on her neck below her left(?) ear, which was thought to be due to the killers nails, but could equally have been Chapman's own nails.

To me the "oh murder" is a red herring. Not only it doesn't make any sense by itself, if you're going to get killed, but the testimonies of it are contradictory by design. And although I do believe Prater, her hearing the cry after waking up from being asleep is very unreliable, least of all the time she heard the supposed cry.

I think too 'theatrical' is the word, yes I agree, however what Mr Twibbs writes is also true. Back in the 19th century they had a strange vocabulary compared to our usages. We can also see a variety of uses for "Oh, murder" in the contemporary press. Back in the day we find stories in the press of theft where the victim cries "oh, murder", but the culprit had left the scene already. Another case I recall of a woman in her back yard at night being frightened by a homeless man, she screamed "oh, murder", until the police showed up.

.... IMO, Kelly was long dead by 4:00 AM. If I had to guess, she was probably killed somewhere before 1:30 AM but around 1:00 AM to 2:00 AM is the best guess anyone can make.

So you agree with Dr. Bond's estimate?
"...The body was comparatively cold at 2 o'clock and the remains of a recently taken meal were found in the stomach and scattered about over the intestines. It is, therefore, pretty certain that the woman must have been dead about 12 hours and the partly digested food would indicate that death took place about 3 or 4 hours after the food was taken, so one or two o'clock in the morning would be the probable time of the murder."
One wonders how he arrived at that estimate without an established time for when she last ate.
Unless, of course, Abberline had been able to trace the source of that last meal?

This is the last time anyone of note can track her movements - the singing stops around that time, the lights go off, neither Blotchy or Kelly are seen to leave and we have only Hutchinson's testimony to go on.

Not quite, we do have Mrs Kennedy who said she saw Kelly outside the Britannia about 3:00 am.
Also, the police had to return to Millers Court the day after the inquest to re-interview some of the residents, it turned out Kelly was seen out on the streets between 2:00-3:00am, afterall.

Problem is, Hutchinson's testimony is almost completely off for we to believe it.

Part of Hutchinson's story is corroborated by Sarah Lewis.

[Meet Ze Monster]

I agree some of Bury's behaviour in Dundee is certainly hard to explain. Why would he chalk those messages and then claim to be worried about being arrested as JtR? I think the latter claim could well be a worry based on the fact that he has repeated something he has done before and knows how it looks, so attempts a throw away comment to disassociate himself from the earlier example.

Interesting! And totally reasonable. Claiming her death was a suicide and acknowledging how it looks to an outsider could well be a weird kind of double bluff. It also shows how disassociated and pathological he really could be.

On the injuries, if he was copying, would he not have done something like McKenzie? By that I mean a lot of non specific scratches. If someone wanted to copy the ripper they would need to find someone vulnerable in the early hours (prostitute), he would then need to take them to some dark quite corner, and then to get at the lower body he would need to lift there skirts. All of that is so general, along with her injuries, that anyone who knew the basics of the case could have done it. If he wanted to copy the ripper, why didn't he also cut her throat, as that was what he was known for?

I suspect he cut the throats of his victims because strangulation was relatively slow and killing alone was not really his drive. I posted somewhere else that I think after Chapman he probably did away with strangulation in favour of a lethal cut to avoid resistance etc. But as for Ellen, he had no need to 'sneak' attack her and subdue her quickly. The abdominal/genital mutilations were all that really mattered to him.


On a side note, one of the things I find so plausible about Bury is the front on sketch of him stood at the dock in his nice respectable suit, nicely groomed and looking every inch the picture of normality. Yet this is the man that actually went back to Ellen's body to make further incisions for the hell of it. As I said in my first post, I can so easily see all the victims being taken in by Bury and his 5.2 frame and neat dress.[/QUOTE]

I don't disagree. It is known that he possessed a vicious darkside and would crawl the streets at night in a stupor. The fact that he was 'demasculated' and dependent as well as cruel is to me a very strong case for guilt.