Her eyes?

[Michael W Richards]

In response Caz;

And you seem to think you can read my mind, but you'd be wrong, Michael, because I have never assumed 'all the women were actively prostituting themselves' and I've said so on numerous occasions, so it's beyond tedious to have to keep repeating myself.

Youve broadstroked with comments about active prostitution across all these murders Caz, Im not going to go and saerch for even one because you know Im correct and frankly this isnt that big a deal to me.

Have you got it now?? I don't know whether Kelly was actively prostituting herself that night, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised.

Since there is no evidence at all that Mary ever brought a client into that court, and that the one man other than Barnett that she does bring in is treated to singing for over and hour, it seems the evidence can help you determine whether or not.

You seem to think she wasn't, and had no need to do so, even though the rent man was hoping to collect in the morning. That's fine as it's just your opinion, but others have a perfect right to disagree. You don't have to be so disagreeable about it.

Last point first, I apparently do have to be surly when making statements because very rarely is my point or position accurately reflected in rebuttals. Its a simple problem, I use the basic evidence parameters and find what stories best fit with it. I suppose people get pissed when I seem so sure about some things, but quite frankly I have vetted many storylines for some of these murders and I am pretty sure about some of my "guesses". Youll note that the only Suspect name Ive ever suggested in connection with any of these murders could not have killed all 5 women and yet Ive never strongly suggested candidates for the others. Because Im not looking for the Name, or the Names. I seek the real story and it will lead to the Name. We differ that way.

[Michael W Richards]

Well, that all depends on how much you know about the area & the times.
When Joseph Isaacs was arrested in December 1888 even the journalist who saw him wrote that he definitely resembled the suspect in the Astrachan coat. Isaacs, a middle-aged Jew, was known to dress above his station, and to pose as someone of importance. He was even known to wear a false gold watch chain, and he lived in Paternoster Row, just off Dorset st.

I think Wick that there may be more to Issacs but I have been unable to find a cross reference. Not only was what you wrote above accurate, but he had just moved to the room in Little Paternosters Row and left, leaving belongings behind, in the middle of the night Mary is murdered. I think the name Issacs may have relevance to the club on Berner St, we know that Mary was seeing someone named Joe at the same time she was with Barnett..most assume Flemming...and interestingly as you note he does fit Astrakans details.

[caz]

Well Caz, what has your vivid imagination made of singing behind closed doors for over an hour....did she sing while servicing? Or was that her weekend special....sex and song while inebriated?

Well you seem to know more than me about what prostitutes don't do to cadge their next drink, so I will have to bow to your superior knowledge on the subject.

Listen up, everyone. Prostitutes don't sing.

[caz]

Are you the pot to my kettle? You seem to think all the women were actively prostituting themselves including Mary.....just that nasty speed bump about any evidence for that whatsoever thats holding you back? You made so many decisions without using the known evidence but you shouldnt accuse others of the same without some evidence.

And you seem to think you can read my mind, but you'd be wrong, Michael, because I have never assumed 'all the women were actively prostituting themselves' and I've said so on numerous occasions, so it's beyond tedious to have to keep repeating myself.

Have you got it now?? I don't know whether Kelly was actively prostituting herself that night, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised.

You seem to think she wasn't, and had no need to do so, even though the rent man was hoping to collect in the morning. That's fine as it's just your opinion, but others have a perfect right to disagree. You don't have to be so disagreeable about it.

[Wickerman]

Let's try this one out...

I doubt it will get you anywhere...

Did Hutchinson also know Lechmere -- and well enough to want to protect him? Lechmere and Maywood had children attending the same school for a time. Maywood was Kelly's pimp around then. Lechmere may actually have known Kelly, therefore. Lechmere had a daughter named Mary Jane (b.1875). Mary Jane Kelly probably wasn't really called Mary Jane, but took the names from somewhere. Kelly was scared by the Ripper murders (and ?therefore? behind with her rent), but would likely have trusted Lechmere if she'd known him from before and taken his eldest daughter's name.

If....if...if...if...

Hutchinson's description of Astrakhan Man is absolutely ludicrous --

Well, that all depends on how much you know about the area & the times.
When Joseph Isaacs was arrested in December 1888 even the journalist who saw him wrote that he definitely resembled the suspect in the Astrachan coat. Isaacs, a middle-aged Jew, was known to dress above his station, and to pose as someone of importance. He was even known to wear a false gold watch chain, and he lived in Paternoster Row, just off Dorset st.

Sgt. Badham & Insp. Abberline, who both interviewed Hutchinson were quite satisfied with what he told them, but they knew the area & the type of people who frequented the East End, unlike yourself.
So, who's opinion do you think has any value here?

.....but would have served very well as a way of putting the police off Lechmere's scent had he been one of the people seen. Hypothesis: Lechmere had connections and pulled in a favour...

M.

You're on the wrong thread.

[Michael W Richards]

Since Caz and others consistently misrepresent what Ive said, what my personal beliefs are, and what the evidence is actually saying. So...I do not believe any one man killed the five Canonicals, I believe one man killed 2 of them, perhaps 3. I believe that only 2 of the Five Canonicals stated that they were soliciting the nights they are killer respectively, thats the evidence anyway.....I believe that Marys killer did not break into her room but entered and was allowed to stay, it may well have been Blotchy...and I believe that anyone claiming to know differently is incorrect, has misread the evidence, and/or wants a different outcome than the facts themselves provide.

Caz, like many others, is a busy little bee trying to find out who is the one man killed 5 working street women. Problem is that never happened, it wasnt one man, and its not indicated by the evidence anyway.

[Michael W Richards]

If she was fearful of the streets, it was because that was where the ripper had been doing his thing, which might explain why she felt safer entertaining indoors. After all, most women like to think they can trust their instincts with men, but they can get it badly wrong, whether they've only just met or known each other for some considerable time. Kelly only had to be wrong once, and she picked on the wrong man to keep her company at some point that night. If he was a familiar face, she didn't know him as well as she thought she did, but I suspect he was just as likely to have been a stranger, who was only as outwardly charming and generous as he needed to be to win her confidence.

How many days did Mary have alone in that room? She moved in with Barnett, and he moved out the end of Oct. Maria was there until Tuesday that last week...Mary was seen out on Wednesday, and went out drinking Thursday...and not one witness said that they ever saw Mary take any man other than Barnett into that room. Your contention, and a brilliant one, is that Mary began bringing men into her room that very night. How fortuitous for your reasoning.

[Michael W Richards]

So what was Phillips's verdict? That one man murdered Nichols and Chapman; a second did for Stride; a third butchered Eddowes; and a fourth took Kelly apart, in a way that told him this time it was personal?

If not, I will continue to question your apparently unique take on these murders.

"No meaningless cuts". Have you been actually reading any posts or just ranting at other people coming up with answers that you apparently couldnt?

Thats NO, meaning none.....meaningless, that means superfluous.....cuts, that means the marks he made with his knife.

[Michael W Richards]

Ah, how sweet. And if Kelly hadn't been 'indisposed' come Sunday, I've no doubt he would have accompanied her to church.

Well Caz, what has your vivid imagination made of singing behind closed doors for over an hour....did she sing while servicing? Or was that her weekend special....sex and song while inebriated?

[Michael W Richards]

You heard it from one who knows, folks.

Unbelievable.

Are you the pot to my kettle? You seem to think all the women were actively prostituting themselves including Mary.....just that nasty speed bump about any evidence for that whatsoever thats holding you back? You made so many decisions without using the known evidence but you shouldnt accuse others of the same without some evidence.

[Mark J D]

Hutchinson was not in the position of having to prove his story, he was a witness. He said he had known her for 3? years, well, three year prior Kelly was living at 79 Pennington street, and Stephen Maywood also lived there (or next door), who was a horse dealer with stables at Romford.
Did Hutchinson, a horse-groomer, and connections to Romford, know Stephen Maywood three years ago?

Let's try this one out...

Did Hutchinson also know Lechmere -- and well enough to want to protect him? Lechmere and Maywood had children attending the same school for a time. Maywood was Kelly's pimp around then. Lechmere may actually have known Kelly, therefore. Lechmere had a daughter named Mary Jane (b.1875). Mary Jane Kelly probably wasn't really called Mary Jane, but took the names from somewhere. Kelly was scared by the Ripper murders (and ?therefore? behind with her rent), but would likely have trusted Lechmere if she'd known him from before and taken his eldest daughter's name. Hutchinson's description of Astrakhan Man is absolutely ludicrous -- but would have served very well as a way of putting the police off Lechmere's scent had he been one of the people seen. Hypothesis: Lechmere had connections and pulled in a favour...

M.

[caz]

Are you asking my opinion or questioning the comments made by someone trained medically who actually examined her? Its easy to make every comment my own personal opinion so that you can trash talk it, but Phillips saw 4 of the five and was quite capable of making cutting deductions.

So what was Phillips's verdict? That one man murdered Nichols and Chapman; a second did for Stride; a third butchered Eddowes; and a fourth took Kelly apart, in a way that told him this time it was personal?

If not, I will continue to question your apparently unique take on these murders.

[caz]

Kelly was said to be fearful of the streets during the Ripper run, and she was 2 1/2 weeks in arrears, and she did have Barnett giving her money even after leaving, and Maria after spending the afternoon in her room with her. Doesnt seem like she was working that last night either, and still got drunk. Some women were lucky enough to still appear marketable after a few years soliciting, she likely had her drinks bought for her, and by Blotchy would be my guess.

I believe Blotchy or someone Blotchy knew was her killer, and getting her almost pass out drunk was part of a plan. Like having someone watch the courtyard for some time that night.

If she was fearful of the streets, it was because that was where the ripper had been doing his thing, which might explain why she felt safer entertaining indoors. After all, most women like to think they can trust their instincts with men, but they can get it badly wrong, whether they've only just met or known each other for some considerable time. Kelly only had to be wrong once, and she picked on the wrong man to keep her company at some point that night. If he was a familiar face, she didn't know him as well as she thought she did, but I suspect he was just as likely to have been a stranger, who was only as outwardly charming and generous as he needed to be to win her confidence.

[caz]

Since you asked I think he probably was a safe man to get a walk home with, security if you will. And she rewards him with her company and song.

Ah, how sweet. And if Kelly hadn't been 'indisposed' come Sunday, I've no doubt he would have accompanied her to church.

[caz]

When you look at evidence based on an outcome or suspect youre going to see what fits with that and tailor your profile accordingly. Youll see what you planned on seeing. In Strides case there is doubt circumstantially, with physical evidence and outcome that all adds up to a man who wanted to kill a woman. Nobody thinking of ripping up anyone.

You heard it from one who knows, folks.

Unbelievable.